Keith and D. Mindock and whoever else - I can't keep track of all the quotes below...
Carter was a good president - heck, I have a signed picture from him. First president I voted for. I true to the second one - I think the first was a give away by the court, but I agree about the voter intimidation - I had friends there - certain groups were STRONGLY discouraged from voting- when I have time I'll post the tale. I agree Reagan had hanky-panky w/ the Iran hostage issue, but I don't think there was ballot stuffing The election process is broken and getting worse I fear you are right about the police state I don't think I'm prevaricating and I am certainly not trying to paint you as negative - my *main* point is that I see far more awakeniing and positive progress here in the US than since the 60's. I AM in agreement with you - Americans are complicit because they haven't moved strongly enough to STOP torture. But I think they tide is changing. Heck, I spent several hours sending email for Amnesty International on that very issue this week. Yes, Bushco is nuts. No argument there But now I have to go out of town and won't return until Monday, so don't think for a moment that I have given up arguing with you, Keith. Aside from baiting Redler, going back and forth with you on the list is one of my joys these days - I always enjoy someone who can think and give it right back. Besides, we're mostly on the same page - half the reason I like this list is the clipping service it provides. Mike "pointy-headed liberal" Weaver D. Mindock wrote: >Mike, Keith, > > I'd like to add my 2 cents. > > > > >>Hello Mike Weaver >> >> >> >>>NOT TRUE! >>> >>> >>True. >> >> >True is correct. Ken Lay had a bunch of goons flown down to storm the >recount going on. The >recounters were scared so badly, they stopped the counting. Gore had picked >up 400 plus votes >in a short time and was on his way to winning in Florida when the counting >was halted through fear >and intimidation. Those 400 something votes never were added into the >official tally. > > >>>The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) >>>The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. >>> >>>FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. >>> >>> >Reagan had those people being held hostage to continue to be held until >after the proper time. It made him look like someone who get things done. >Carter was a good president overall, far better than Reagan. > > >>You miss the point. There's no need to cheat if the whole charade is >>a shell game anyway. >> >> > >Keith, you're right. We need to clean up the entire election process. Right >now all we get are corporate wolves who say nice pleasant things, but do >terrible things >once in the Oval Office. > > >>>I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, >>>but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. >>> >>> >>You're IN a corporatocracy. But that's no reason to throw in the towel >>either. >> >> >Oh yeah, deep now and getting deeper every day. We are moving to a police >state where we're all to be good orderly consumers but totally impotent as >far as influencing >the government in Wash DC. Congress now is acting like a deer in the >headlights >of an oncoming semi-trailer truck, totally frozen into inaction wrt removing >the >ogre in the Oval Office. It has three more years to wreak havoc on the >world, >a very dismal thought indeed. > > >>>I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. >>> >>> >>Of course there's hope, perhaps more now than ever before. Look it in >>the face, no need to rose-tint it, you might find more hope there >>than you think. >> >> >Hope is always present. BushCo would like to kill hope, since hopeful >people tend to resist its insane policies. > > >>>I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself >>>a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think >>>all is lost. >>>If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the >>>60's. >>> >>> >Yeah, more and more are becoming disgusted with the Bush regime. Now >only if we can get the zombie-like Congress to do something. > > >>>One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. >>> >>> > >Bush is perfect. He never has made a mistake. Ask him. And he is the enemy >of >the good, all the way. So you are correct. > > >>Can you explain to me how that applies to domestic opposition to US >>torture. >> >> > >Some Americans do believe in torture, probably the 32% that like Bush. But >most don't. It definitely isn't something any major religion would back. >However, > I think most people though don't really >understand the idea that the ends do not justify the means and so they are >ambivalent about the idea of torture. And this perhaps causes foggy >thinking on the issue. > I think that the Bush "No Child Left Behind" policy >will cause further decline in critical thinking here in the USA. This is of >course what the would-be dictators, like Bush, love. School here is all >about >learning enough to get a nice job. It is deplorable, but true. Myself, >I think learning to use one's brain fluidly is important to live a high >quality life in all of its potentialities. (Learning job skills comes in a >distant >second.) Bush's program causes a reduction in free thinking and teachers >are concerned about the students doing well on the Bush imposed tests. >Students are taught to be orderly and not be disruptive. They are being >set up to be orderly consumers. > > > >>Or how it applies to the shambles of "Progressive" opposition during >>the last 30 years. >> >> >Liberals have not been effective. Reagan somehow made the word liberal into >a put-down. True Progressives are people like Kucinich and Feingold and the >late Paul Wellstone. Kerry is not progressive anything and not even a >Liberal. >It is really not a questions of labels though. The real thing is personal >integrity >and moral fortitude to go against what's popular and do the right action. >Since >politics is the art of compromise, politicians can easily slip up and >compromise >their own integrity. It happens with sickening regularity. > > >>It's a noble attempt to stick a band-aid over it. >> >>I said I wasn't belittling your efforts, and you know it's true. But >>please don't evade the issue and then chuck stuff like this at me. >>Stop trying to paint me as negative while you squirm to get off the >>hook. >> >>You say you've been out fighting all this time along with the "huge" >>number of Americans who "are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard >>as we can". Happily accepted, but what efforts have you put into >>campaigning against US torture? >> >> >Personally, I have written my Congressional rep and Senators many times. >They write >back saying they agree and will do whatever they can to stop torture in US >controlled >prisons. I have a feeling they are stymied by the administration's denial of >torture while >at the same time they reserve the right to use torture. Keith, I think we >will not get anywhere >with this until the House of Representatives moves to impeach Bush. >Censuring him will >not stop this guy. He is bonkers! Only removal through impeachment will do >the trick. >So, all we can do is to put constant pressure on our U.S. House reps to >begin the impeachment >process. I have written to my state level reps to get Illinois to recommend >impeachment. >I think five other states (Wisconsin, New Mexico, Nevada, N. Carolina, & >Vermont have >already done this. This push for impeachment is extremely important at this >time. >Bush is destroying this country. >Peace to all, D. Mindock >=============================================================== > > >>Insert from previous: >> >> >> >>>>>>It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability >>>>>>to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings >>>>>>inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad >>>>>>torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. >>>>>>See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone >>>>>>have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try >>>>>>to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how "only human" >>>>>>it is. Like hell it is. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>Did you try it Mike, and you're still prevaricating? >> >>Why am I having to re-focus you on the topic? Twice now. >> >> >> >>>>But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other >>>>way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. >>>> >>>> >>>>http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm >>>>Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times >>>>We Are All Torturers Now >>>> >>>> >>Namaste >> >>Keith >> >> >> >> >>>Keith Addison wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hello Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Keith, >>>>> >>>>>Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US >>>>>together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>And the one before, and the next one. But which president didn't? >>>>It's just a matter of degree of in-your-faceness. The Business Party >>>>wins every time. >>>> >>>>'It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is >>>>basically a one-party state -- the business party, with two factions, >>>>Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A >>>>very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the >>>>government serves "the few and the special interests," not "the >>>>people." ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream >>>>describe the US not as a "democracy" but as a "polyarchy": a system >>>>of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely >>>>much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social >>>>philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on >>>>democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary >>>>economic institutions, politics will be "the shadow cast on society >>>>by big business."' - Noam Chomsky >>>> >>>>That is hardly unique to the US. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>and a HUGE group >>>>>of us >>>>>USers (I hate the term "American" - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't >>>>>exist) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>We've discussed that before. But it's worldwide usage. I don't think >>>>it causes much confusion, Washington, Americans, North Americans, >>>>everybody understands that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight >>>>>his programs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Huge? You (collectively) were outmanoeuvred 30 years ago and you've >>>>hardly got a thing right since, you didn't see anything coming. You >>>>weren't even easy meat for Bushco, there wasn't any need to take any >>>>notice of you at all. The left or whatever you want to call it has >>>>been pathetic, and still is. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are >>>>>the >>>>>lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. >>>>> >>>>>No one I know is in favor of torture, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Of course they're not. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>and if you follow the news in the >>>>>US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. >>>>>thing, not an "American" >>>>>thing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>The School of the Americas, eg? >>>> >>>>If all you want is to get things back the way they were before >>>>Bushco, then you're liable to have another Bushco ere long. >>>>Business-as-usual over the last 60 years is what has to go, not just >>>>Bushco. Particularly with foreign policy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>"Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it >>>>>fixed." >>>>> >>>>>We are, and our numbers are growing each day! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Good! >>>> >>>>But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other >>>>way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. Rice >>>>and Bolton et al can still deny that it happens and get away with it. >>>>After three and a half years! If you were a torture victim, you'd >>>>still be waiting patiently all this time would you? It's two years >>>>since congress was treated to three hours of slides and videos of US >>>>troops abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib, yet your leaders can still >>>>deny it happens. Not exactly under a lot of pressure, are they? >>>> >>>>"There is no indication of meaningful action by the US government to >>>>remedy the situation and prevent further abuse." -- Amnesty >>>>International >>>> >>>>Americans are waking up in large numbers, at long last, and maybe >>>>it's not even too late, but it hasn't reached the torture issue yet. >>>>You can still say nobody cares, and people do say that. Of course >>>>there are exceptions, there always are. >>>> >>>>I'm not knocking you Mike, nor the efforts of any and all who oppose >>>>power and brute force, I'm sure you know that. >>>> >>>>But I don't think you've made a dent in anything I said. >>>> >>>>http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm >>>>Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times >>>>We Are All Torturers Now >>>> >>>>http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050214fa_fact6 >>>>The New Yorker >>>>Outsourcing Torture >>>>The secret history of America's "extraordinary rendition" program >>>>by JANE MAYER >>>>Issue of 2005-02-14 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, >>>>>assured the world that "torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand >>>>>over people to countries that do torture." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>And he's still there, eh? >>>> >>>>Most Americans haven't got a clue what they look the other way at. >>>> >>>>Best >>>> >>>>Keith >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-Mike >>>>> >>>>>Keith Addison wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Hey Randall, >>>>>>>its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! >>>>>>>Fritz >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Maybe, but whose greed, exactly? >>>>>> >>>>>>I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular... >>>>>> >>>>>>This is a simple thing that's become woven into a hugely complicated >>>>>>situation, a matter of empire. As a result it's not "only" anything >>>>>>anymore, though the simple thing remains, which is that torture is >>>>>>evil, fullstop. >>>>>> >>>>>>People can talk about war being necessary sometimes or even about >>>>>>"holy" wars, but you can't argue that torture is necessary sometimes >>>>>>or talk about "holy" torture unless you're voting for the return of >>>>>>the Inquisition. >>>>>> >>>>>>Torture is not necessary under any circumstances, because all you >>>>>>need to do to break somebody's will is to keep them awake. That's >>>>>>torture too, but it always works. So why do people have to use brutal >>>>>>violence and such perversions as electric shocks to people's genitals? >>>>>> >>>>>>You find these people in every society, people who'll run death camps >>>>>>if that's what's happening, whether passively as guards who are >>>>>>indeed probably just doing their job, enslaved people will do >>>>>>anything you want them to, or actively as torturers and killers, sick >>>>>>and twisted people who'll do it because they love it. >>>>>> >>>>>>That doesn't have anything to do with greed. Every society has its >>>>>>psychopaths, they're a tiny minority, they do not define the society >>>>>>they're a part of, they don't define anything except themselves. >>>>>> >>>>>>States employ torture, not humans unless they're sickos who get off >>>>>>on it. You know, people like Hannibal the Cannibal. >>>>>> >>>>>>The US attempt to blame low-ranking cannon-fodder for Abu Ghraib etc >>>>>>is just a case of the true culprit throwing up a smokescreen, as >>>>>>usual. You'll always be able to find people who'll stoop to torture >>>>>>if you institutionalise torture, and then if it gets spotlighted you >>>>>>can use them as the fall guys. >>>>>> >>>>>>Hakan's right, IMHO. Many people have commented that Americans just >>>>>>aren't interested in the torture issue, they're turning a blind eye >>>>>>while it goes on happening and spreads. >>>>>> >>>>>>Pointing the finger, or a finger, at the UN is something you might do >>>>>>if you don't know much about John Bolton either - Americans are >>>>>>definitely to blame for him too, and he's there for one reason only, >>>>>>to kick the UN into a compliant shape. Please read this: >>>>>> >>>>>>http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/15/usint12295.htm >>>>>>Response to Criticism of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights >>>>>>(Human Rights Watch, 15-12-2005) >>>>>> >>>>>>That's UN Ambassador John Bolton on US torture. >>>>>> >>>>>>http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Bolton >>>>>>John R. Bolton - SourceWatch >>>>>> >>>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60612.html >>>>>>[Biofuel] Steamroller Bolton at the U.N. >>>>>> >>>>>>http://www.counterpunch.org/barry03142005.html >>>>>>Tom Barry: John Bolton's Baggage >>>>>> >>>>>>Institutionalised torture is an abomination, it stains everybody with >>>>>>complicity in a nation that condones it or institutes it, unless they >>>>>>live under a totalitarian dictatorship. >>>>>> >>>>>>It's said people get the government they deserve. There's a lot of >>>>>>meaning in that but it's not really true. The amount of say that most >>>>>>people have in their governments is only theirs on sufferance, those >>>>>>in a totalitarian state have no say, they're slaves. But people who >>>>>>had every say and every opportunity and who let it all slip away >>>>>>through sheer negligence get the government they deserve. In this >>>>>>current case, everybody else's problem is that the rest of us are >>>>>>getting that government too and we don't deserve it. >>>>>> >>>>>>If you want to blame someone, blame this: >>>>>> >>>>>>"Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship." >>>>>>-- William Blum - Rogue State, on how governments control their >>>>>>citizens >>>>>>http://www.killinghope.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>>People get the newspapers they deserve too. >>>>>> >>>>>>It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability >>>>>>to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings >>>>>>inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad >>>>>>torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. >>>>>>See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone >>>>>>have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try >>>>>>to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how "only human" >>>>>>it is. Like hell it is. >>>>>> >>>>>>Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it >>>>>>fixed. >>>>>> >>>>>>Best >>>>>> >>>>>>Keith >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Randall >>>>>>>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:19 PM >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of >>>>>>>torture? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hakan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To answer your question: No. Your questions imply that ALL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>Americans have >>> >>> >>>>>>>proof about systematic and long-term torture, and quite simply I do >>>>>>>not >>>>>>>believe that you have the evidence to support that assertion. What >>>>>>>other >>>>>>>countries have been reported to and are listed with Amnesty >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>International as >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>having employed torture? Are you going to issue the same >>>>>>>indictment of >>>>>>>the citizens of those countries as well? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Aren't ALL member nations in the UN responsible for not forcing ALL >>>>>>>countries to stop using torture? Using your assertion, aren't >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>the citizens >>> >>> >>>>>>>of all those countries responsible as well? Yes, I know it is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>easy to say >>> >>> >>>>>>>that the US has a veto on the Security Council...but why not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>simply change >>> >>> >>>>>>>the system?? Sitting back and just saying that they cannot is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>the same as >>> >>> >>>>>>>the comparison to 1930's and 1940's Nazi Germany. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Simply having a vote does not imply responsibilty, much less confer >>>>>>>the >>>>>>>ability to force the action (or non-action) of a government. This >>>>>>>does >>>>>>>not excuse torture...but nor does it solve it either. I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>believe you need >>> >>> >>>>>>>to first figure out what makes humans CAPABLE of torture then you can >>>>>>>address the REASONS that humans employ torture. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--Randall >>>>>>> >>>>>>>________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>___________ >>> >>> >>>>>>><< Heisenberg may have slept here >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening >>>>>>>my >>>>>>>xe." --Abraham Lincoln >>>>>>> >>>>>>>________________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>___________ >>> >>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: "Hakan Falk" >>>>>>><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>><<mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:19 PM >>>>>>>Subject: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>US has not stopped torture, according to Amnesty >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>><http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId >>>>>>>=1519912>http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking >>>>>>>&storyId=1519912 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Who belive that they stopped? It casts a shadow over all Americans, >>>>>>>>who >>>>>>>>are responsible for their government. At least republicans are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>clearly to >>> >>> >>>>>>>>identify with what's going on. This especially elected >>>>>>>>representatives, >>>>>>>>who refuse to take a stand and stop their support of this >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>administration. >>> >>> >>>>>>>>Why is there so little public actions to get rid of the current >>>>>>>>government? >>>>>>>>A massive rejection of its methods, would make them resign, but it >>>>>>>>is >>>>>>>>no signs of it. No actions are the same as compliancy, Americans of >>>>>>>>today, must have a very good understanding and sympathy for the >>>>>>>>Germans in the 1930's. They only "let it happen" also. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Was Vietnam not enough, or should future generations have to feel >>>>>>>>more guilt of their ancestors behavior. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Hakan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
