Hello Mike >Hi Keith...1) "Why're you so doubtful about it?" Because of how the >NewsMax "poll" is being conducted. And because I am profoundly >aware of the propaganda machine, having been a victim of it in 1988 >when I ran for State Senator.
There is nobody in the US who is not a victim of the propaganda machine. Not so sure about the world, I think there still might be a few, but that's presuming they survive global warming. Am I blaming you for that too? :-) I don't think global warming would be in the same hapless situation it is now but for the billions and billions of tons of excess carbon poured into the atmosphere in the last 14 years under cover of the US and US-led propaganda effort that spiked the binding agreement on climate change that was to be the centre-piece at the Rio "Earth Summit" of 1992, and ever since. It comes from the same folks as the nuke Iran spin is coming from, mostly, along with a few other people these days in the freak show Washington calls "foreign policy". Not that there's any case for interfering with it at all, let alone nuking it, but I don't think Iran would be the same place today either but for more of the same. Such as the CIA regime-change operation in 1953 that replaced the democratically elected Mossadeq government with the Shah, if you want to talk about democracies and totalitarian dictatorships. http://snipurl.com/qacg biofuel - Search results for 'Mossadeq' No need to go on is there. >As far as the other polls to which you refer are concerned, thank >you for pointing these out. > 2) "These beliefs are closely correlated with intentions to >vote for Bush. So what's new?" The Bush vote is not representative >of the majority of "ordinary" American citizens. Maybe someone >would like to discover how many Americans are eligible to vote, how >many have actually registered, and how many vote of those that are >registered. Not very impressive. But for good reason, as one >friend of mine says, "I don't want to encourage them." See >also: <http://www.ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm>http://www.ideamouth.co >m/voterfraud.htm. Our electoral college screws up things even >more. Maybe someone would like to enlighten us on why this exists. > Of the percentage of registered voters who did vote in the last two >presidential elections, roughly half of the registered voters voted >for Bush and the other half voted for either Gore or Kerry. Of >course, as pointed out in the "torture" threads, it really doesn't >matter who gets elected, it's all still the "business class." >Nonetheless, the Bush vote is not representative of the majority of >"ordinary" American citizens. We've been through all this lots of times before. > 3) The Newsmax poll and what it says and who's spinning it if >anyone is irrelevant. The fact is that the US and Israel are >creeping up on nuking Iran, and dragging public opinion along >behind, as usual. Check it out for yourself. I won't argue with >you about the intentions of the propaganda machine, but I will take >issue with you about the NewsMax "poll" or any publicly disseminated >poll being irrelevant. I will also question what "public" we might >be talking about, especially concerning the NewsMax "poll." > 4) NewsMax.com Not to be trusted, but in this case it's >irrelevant. Tear your eyes away from what's disturbing you about >NewsMax, and do some work on the Internet, and in the Biofuel list >archives, on the mounting US fear and loathing campaign against >Iran. I have. Again, thank you. But again, the NewsMax.com "poll" >is not irrelevant. It is highly relevant in how it >distorts majority opinion in this country. Not particularly, it's not clear that the poll distorts it, and if it does it's just an example, same as all the others. NewsMax is not always distorted. I've hardly checked incoming news for days, but if I had I'd have spent time on Iran and the US, but I wouldn't have checked NewsMax. There'll be another poll soon by someone else and then we can see if they connect. Okay, as well as worry NewsMax, why not go back one step in the rising tide of acquiescence to the previous polls. Investigate them too, check out the news sources at the time and who was saying what, check it all at Sourcewatch or FAIR. Check the list archives resources on spinmeisters of various ilk and where they're coming from and where the deep pockets are, see if you can draw some lines. Or compare it all with a previous such case, correlations will make it easier. Hold it over a timeline of the disinfo about the Iraq invasion and occupation and see where they register. Then see how the revelations of the war-pimping over Iraq and the mounting outrage over it run right into a rising tide of precisely the same kind of gullibility over Iran, among many of the very same people. To change the subject, though not really, have you read Stauber and Rampton's work? >How come your reply doesn't even mention the word "Iran" in >your haste to defend... to defend what, exactly? I'm defending the >majority of "ordinary" American citizens, right or wrong. My country right or wrong? That's what I'm complaining about, and I think I'm not the only one. >More importantly, I'm defending our innate ability to think >critically about everything we read...to ask who, what, when, where, >why, and how something is written and published. It doesn't matter >whether we're talking about Iran or any other subject. But in the doing you've somehow managed to mislay the subject of nuking Iran. > 5) We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go >and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're >obliged to be aware of what your government does abroad with your >tax money, and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. >What other people or other governments do is beside the point. The >only exception is if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, >then you're not complicit because you're just a helpless slave. >What can I do about it, Keith? What can I do about it, List? What >can anyone who wants to change it do about it? Vote? Been there, >done that...doesn't work. As we keep saying. >More suggestions, please. Write letters to "representatives?" Been >there, done that...doesn't work. It might. You could argue with Mike Weaver about that, quite a few others I suspect. >The majority of "representatives" represent the business class. Also as we keep saying, the "Business Party", the Polyarchy. >Pour gas all over myself, light a match, and burn up myself in front >of a few gawking bystanders and possibly a "news" media who would >never report my reasons for doing so? Aint gonna happen. And that's where you stop? Grandfather Mike DuPree said there was nothing he could do so he did nothing. >Must be a totalitarian dictatorship in which I live. Lots of Americans were talking about Krystalnacht four years ago. >So now what do I do? > >6) Sorry, you'll have to respond, those are the rules here. Why be >sorry? Thank you for the questions and directions. I better >understand how slippery is my place on the planet. So I'll ask >again, now what do I do? About what, Mike? About not nuking Iran or about defending Americans, right or wrong? Anyway, you know what you're good at. There are millions upon millions of Americans out there who have a very wide variety of ideas on what to do now and they're doing it, why don't you check it out? They're making enough noise about it, they're easy to find. Beyond them are worldwide networks, lots of global villages, like this one. "Think globally, act locally." The list archives is a good place to browse. This message is at the list's subscription page: "Your list contains some of the best information I have found on the Internet. The archives are great and that is where I spend most of my time acquiring knowledge. This information I believe vitally important NOW and am very happy it is here. Our future may just depend upon it. Now that is important." He's an American. He wasn't talking about biodiesel. The rest of the world has been yelling at Americans for between four and 50 years, depending how you look at it, telling them to wake up and take their country back. Time to do it now. I don't think it's compatible with defending Americans right or wrong. Best Keith >Mike DuPree > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Addison" ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 4:20 AM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran > > > > Hello Mike > > > > Why're you so doubtful about it? Sure, it's always good to check, but > > it's well in line with what usually happens, as people are saying. > > > > For instance (from the list archives): > > > > ><http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20263>http://www.alternet.org/waron >iraq/20263 > > War on Iraq: The World According to a Bush Voter > > October 21, 2004 > > "A new survey reveals that Bush supporters choose to keep faith in > > their leader rather than face reality... > > "But here is the truly astonishing part: as many or more Bush > > supporters hold those beliefs today than they did several months ago. > > In other words, more people believe the claims today -- after the > > publication of a series of well-publicized official government > > reports that debunked both notions." > > > > That poll was conducted by University of Maryland's Program on > > International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) and Knowledge Networks. Here's > > the poll report itself: > > ><http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqRealities_Oct04/IraqRealit >i>http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqRealities_Oct04/IraqReali >ti > > es%20Oct04%20rpt.pdf > > > > Then there's this: > > > >>Results of previous PIPA/Knowledge Networks poll [May 04]: > >> > >>- A 57% majority believed Iraq was either "directly involved" in > >>carrying out the 9/11 attacks or had provided "substantial support" > >>to al-Qaeda > >>- 82% either said that "experts mostly agree Iraq was providing > >>substantial support to al Qaeda" or "experts are evenly divided on > >>the question" > >>- 45% believe that evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda has been > >>found > >>- 60% believe that just before the war Iraq either had weapons of > >>mass destruction or a major program for developing them > >>- 65% said most experts say Iraq did have them or that experts are > >>divided on the question > >>- estimates of the number of US troop fatalities in Iraq varied widely > >>- 59% were unaware that the majority of world public opinion is > >>opposed to the US war with Iraq > >>- asked how many nuclear weapons the U.S. has, the median estimate > >>was 200 (the actual number is 6,000) > >> > >>These beliefs are closely correlated with intentions to vote for Bush. > > > > So what's new? > > > > Look at the escalation in the Iran case: > > > >>Iran has not violated the NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty), > >>does not have a nuclear weapons program, and poses no threat to its > >>neighbors or the United States. Never the less, the spurious > >>accusations in the media have precipitated a dramatic shift in > >>public opinion. For more than a decade only 6% of the American > >>people considered Iran the "greatest danger" to the United States. > >>Now (according to a recent Pew Poll) that number has jumped to 27%. > >>Also, the survey showed that "nearly half (47%) said they favored > >>military action, preferably along with European allies, to halt > >>Iran's nuclear program." -- Jim Lobe, "Polls: anti-Iran Propaganda > >>Working", February 10, 2006 > > ><http://www.antiwar.com/lobe/?articleid=8526>http://www.antiwar.com/lo >be/?articleid=8526 > > > > Compare with the current Newsmax poll, it makes a curve. > > > > Worse than that, Lobe's piece three months ago said "the polls do not > > show eagerness to take military action now or unilaterally. The > > public appears to prefer an effort to settle the crisis > > diplomatically, preferably through the United Nations." > > > > Now they do, and sod the UN. > > > > The Newsmax poll and what it says and who's spinning it if anyone is > > irrelevant. The fact is that the US and Israel are creeping up on > > nuking Iran, and dragging public opinion along behind, as usual. > > Check it out for yourself. > > > > People are commenting on short term memory loss. It's not short term > > memory loss, it's manufactured memory loss. > > > > Robert said "I think this illustrates how effective the propaganda > > machine in the > > US has become." Absolutely. > > > > "The United States is not only number one in military power but also > > in the effectiveness of its propaganda system." -- Edward S. Herman > > > > I just said in another message: "You have to stop the spin. The > > trouble is it works so well most people aren't even aware of it, and > > if they are they think they're immune." > > > >>Hi Fritz and everyone...polls...hmmm...can anyone tell me more about > >>"NewsMax"? > > > > ><http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?search=NewsMax&fulltext=Search>h >ttp://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?search=NewsMax&fulltext=Search > > Search results - SourceWatch > > NewsMax.com > > > > Not to be trusted, but in this case it's irrelevant. Tear your eyes > > away from what's disturbing you about NewsMax, and do some work on > > the Internet, and in the Biofuel list archives, on the mounting US > > fear and loathing campaign against Iran. > > > > How come your reply doesn't even mention the word "Iran" in your > > haste to defend... to defend what, exactly? > > > >>Who owns and controls this website? Fritz, have you asked anyone at > >>NewsMax how this poll was conducted? What are the demographics of > >>this poll? I see on their homepage as of today, Sunday, May 7, just > >>after 7pm Central (USA), where they site a poll WITH HEADLINES that > >>says Fox is the most trusted news source in the U.S., but the story > >>says we're talking about 11% of the public making it this "popular." > >>Hey, if only roughly One in Ten Americans are fatheads, we're not > >>doin' too bad. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of > >>these 11% make up the largest percentage of the "voters" who > >>answered the NewsMax poll, which would make that "77%" actually an > >>incredibly small percentage of the U.S. population. Sorry you > >>blame the "ordinary" U.S. citizen for however our government acts. > > > > We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and read > > it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to > > be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and > > if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people > > or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is if > > you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not complicit > > because you're just a helpless slave. > > > >>What's the deal in your country? Is your government walking in > >>lockstep with the will of the overwhelming majority of the > >>"ordinary" citizens? What is "ordinary" anyway???? I'll leave it > >>at that for now. > > > > Sorry, you'll have to respond, those are the rules here. > > > > Keith Addison > > Journey to Forever > > KYOTO Pref., Japan > > <http://journeytoforever.org/>http://journeytoforever.org/ > > Biofuel list owner > > > >>Mike > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >> > >>From: ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Fritz>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >lb.sympatico.ca>Fritz Friesinger > >>To: ><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai >lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:09 PM > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran > >> > >>Hakan, > >>indeed dejea vu, > >>once the propagandamachine works as fine as it does in the US,all > >>out war is'nt far away! > >>The whole polemic about the communist threat BS, it was and is > >>always the migthy US who uses Nukes to intimidate the rest of the > >>world! > >>I dispise them for it and can not help to blame the ordinary US > >>Citicen.As a German i felt long time the blame for the wrong doeings > >>of the Nazis even i was born in 48! > >>eh bien and so on... > >>Get better Hakan,there is no time to loose > >>Fritz > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: ><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Hakan>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >com>Hakan Falk > >>To: ><<mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org>mai >lto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:23 PM > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran > >> > >> > >>Fritz, > >> > >>Have a strong feeling of dejavu and this time I will save the info in > >>a special place. Pre Iraq, I saw similar figures and also some > >>support on this list. Today it is overwhelming negative numbers in > >>support for the Iraq war and approval ratings for the president. > >>Maybe I should frame this, for future use. > >> > >>Talk about a violent population, 77% in support of military action > >>and killing Iranians. In two years we will have 65% in denial and > >>against the US engagement in Iran. It will be an even bigger mess > >>than Iraq, with attacks all over the world. > >> > >>Hakan > >> > >> > >> > >>At 20:07 07/05/2006, you wrote: > >> >just received > >> > > >> >Fritz > >> > > >> >Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran > >> > > >> >An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are > >> >overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military > >> >action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. > >> > > >> >Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more > >> >than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons > >> >program are not working. > >> > > >> >A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a > >> >greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. > >> > > >> >NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and > >> >share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. > >> > > >> >Here are the poll questions and results: > >> > > >> >1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons > >> >program are working? > >> >Working: 7 percent > >> >Not Working: 93 percent > >> > > >> >2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's > >> >nuclear weapons program? > >> >Yes: 11 percent > >> >No: 89 percent > >> > > >> >3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein > >> >did before the Iraq War? > >> >Yes: 88 percent > >> >No: 12 percent > >> > > >> >4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop > >> >their program? > >> >Yes: 77 percent > >> >No: 23 percent > >> > > >> >5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first? > >> >U.S.: 45 percent > >> >Israel: 35 percent > >> >Neither: 20 percent _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
