Keith,
You wrote:
"Our compost quite often goes up to the 70s or the mid-70s C (160-170 deg
F), usually by the next day. That causes me no concern at all."
I'm glad I didn't get this post yesterday. I don't think I would have
gotten as much work done.Upon reading Tom Irwin's post I was worried about
pasteurizing my "heap". The earthy smell and the steam coming off that pile
as I turned it was a thing to behold. To Tom Irwin: right or wrong about
upper temps for compost piles, I appreciate your response. I got a great
deal of work done that I'd been putting off. It gave me a great appetite for
dinner and last night I slept like a baby.
Keith asked:
"Have you read these? Basic texts on scientific composting by the man who
invented it, in India 80 years ago. "
1. An Agricultural Testament, Albert Howard
2. The Waste Products of Agriculture -- Their Utilization as Humus by
Albert Howard and Yeshwant D. Wad, Oxford University Press, London,
1931
I have not. At a glance, they seem to have much stricter
rules/guidelines than I tend to follow. I'm just carrying on a family
tradition of making "garden dirt".
My grandfather had a wonderful pile of sifted "dirt" that he made himself
and was supposed to be the secret to his gardening success.
About 30 years ago I took a course called "Soil Microbiology" and was
formally introduced to composting by a professor who loved gardening as
much as he loved microbes. Composting was the culmination of a unit on the
role of microbes in recycling matter. It was at that time that I came upon a
simple layering design for making compost.
Keith also asked:
"What are the economics of it for you Tom? How much did the phosphoric cost
you, and how much of it did you buy?"
I bought a 15 gal drum (57 L) of phosphoric acid for $220 (US). It's
expensive. If all one cares about is the economics, then the glycerine
cocktail is essentially a waste product of the process and can be disposed
of however conscience allows.
I think it's roughly a break even proposition with me. The recovered
methanol essentially pays for the phosphoric acid. I know that methanol can
be recovered w/o splitting the glycerine mix, but you're still left with
highly caustic glycerine/lye/soap to deal with
There have been some comments about the feeling of filling the tank
with a recent batch of homebrew. Putting the other products of the process
to good use also feels good.
I also have taken to adding a small amount of phosphoric acid (.20 ml/
L of processed WVO) to my first wash ... thanks again for the suggestion
Todd. For me, this comes to about 18 ml/batch ( ~ 7 cents). It not only has
reduced my washes from 4 to 3, but also makes the wash water from the first
wash easier to dispose of.
I now pour it at the base of shrubs around the edge of my property.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Crude Glycerin and Hot Compost
> >Hello Thomas and all,
>>
>>Temperatures above 65 C. are generally considerred to be limiting in
>>that they tend to kill off large groups of microorganisms and slow
>>down the composting process. I suggest turning the pile when
>>temperatures get that high or you will pasturize the pile and need
>>to regrow your biomass once the pile cools down. Large compost piles
>>(usually in a curing/storage stage) have been known to catch on fire
>>if permitted to dry out too much because they had not finished
>>degrading bug edible material.
>
> Our compost quite often goes up to the 70s or the mid-70s C (160-170
> deg F), usually by the next day. That causes me no concern at all.
> More often it's around the mid-60s though.
>
> It's not like making biodiesel, hotter than 65 C and you lose the
> methanol and it fails. What happens inside a compost pile is very
> complex, it's not that simple as that you kill off all the good guys
> when it gets "too" hot. I don't think it ever gets too hot.
>
> You certainly don't need to regrow anything afterwards.
>
> If you turn it, it happens all by itself and gets hot again, until it
> cools down again. You might not need to turn it, it depends how you
> make it and what it's made of.
>
> If you made it properly it won't run out of water at high
> temperatures and catch fire. When that happens (it's easy with
> chicken manure) it just loses steam and cools down again. More water
> and it heats up again. Once it's finally cooled down and everything
> has been through the process, it's ready to use. If you want to make
> sure, put some in a small pot and sow some cress seeds in it. If they
> germinate it's fully cooked with no VOAs or VFAs and you can use it
> straight away.
>
> I've never seen a compost pile that caught fire. I could be wrong but
> I think you'd have a hard time finding a gardener whose compost
> caught fire.
>
> Industrial composters use stuff like constant mechanical turning and
> air injection, or hot air injection, to speed up the process. If
> that's not properly done it might catch fire, but usually it's
> properly done. Or at least properly done as far as rapid processing
> of unstable organic wastes is concerned, but it's primarily waste
> disposal, as a soil fertiliser it's not much use. They can finish it
> in a day or less, but some of the important micro-organisms take at
> least seven days to develop their colonies. Maybe this is where the
> myth of compost getting too hot and killing off the good guys arose.
>
> I suppose they use compost like this in parks and so on, but if you
> happen to score a load of it for nothing the only use I can think of
> for it, presuming that it's free of heavy metals and the herbicides
> that won't break down and so on, is to use it as a bulk application
> to kickstart run-down soil, which you then innoculate in situ with
> much less real compost, as well as compost tea, preferably made with
> QR and liquid seaweed added.
>
> Anyway industrial composting is not what happens in a garden or on a farm.
>
> I'm also reminded of people who promote mesophylic composting over
> thermophylic composting, they also say the good guys get killed when
> it gets too hot, but then they usually seem to be selling something,
> and the excellent results of thermophylic composting are too well
> established to be brushed aside. I've also seen some of these people
> making claims they were unable to prove, such as that it breaks down
> things it doesn't break down (ie the herbicides I mentioned above).
> Mesophylic compost works, and a lot of people find it easier, but
> it's not better. Hotter is better.
>
> That's a big pile Tom's got, I'm sure it'll be fine. Interesting that
> the glycerine made it hotter than usual, it's a good sign, not a bad
> one. I've used unseparated by-product in compost and that works okay,
> but I haven't used separated glycerine.
>
> What are the economics of it for you Tom? How much did the phosphoric
> cost you, and how much of it did you buy?
>
> Tom says:
>
>> Keith might take issue with the geometry of my compost piles.
>
> Not if it's usually 65 and now it's 71 and not if you've done what
> you've done to your garden with it, I won't take issue with it at
> all. Just as long as it works well and you like it.
>
>> I would like to know if the addition of glycerine enhances the
>>rate of decomposition in a compost pile.
>
> It must be enhancing the amount of decomposition or it wouldn't be so hot.
>
> "The activity of the various micro-organisms which synthesize humus
> can most easily be followed from the temperature records. A very high
> temperature, about 65 deg C. (149 deg F.), is established at the
> outset, which continues with a moderate downward gradient to 30 deg
> C. (86 deg F.) at the end of ninety days. This range fits in well
> with the optimum temperature conditions required for the
> micro-organisms which break down cellulose. The aerobic thermophylic
> bacteria thrive best between 40 deg C. (104 F.) and 55 deg C. (131
> deg F.). Before each turn, a definite slowing down in the
> fermentation takes place: this is accompanied by a fall in
> temperature." (An Agricultural Testament, Albert Howard.)
>
> The rate of decomposition depends on many other things, including
> bulk and dimensions. Howard was using large piles and large pits,
> later he used other types of piles and pits and boxes and the rate
> changed, but the quality didn't. (Quality of compost is measured by
> results, not NPK levels.)
>
> Have you read these? Basic texts on scientific composting by the man
> who invented it, in India 80 years ago. This work has never been
> overtaken or replaced, and confirmed and reinforced.
>
> The Waste Products of Agriculture -- Their Utilization as Humus by
> Albert Howard and Yeshwant D. Wad, Oxford University Press, London,
> 1931
> Where Howard's "An Agricultural Testament" charts a new path for
> sustainable agriculture, this previous book describes how the Indore
> composting system which was the foundation of the new movement was
> developed, and why. Howard's most important scientific publication.
> Full text online.
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/HowardWPA/WPAtoc.html
>
> An Agricultural Testament by Sir Albert Howard, Oxford University Press,
> 1940.
> This is the book that started the organic farming and gardening
> revolution, the result of Howard's 25 years of research at Indore in
> India. The essence of organics is brilliantly encapsulated in the
> Introduction, which begins: "The maintenance of the fertility of the
> soil is the first condition of any permanent system of agriculture."
> Read on! Full explanation of the Indore composting process and its
> application. Excellent on the relationship between soil, food and
> health. Full text online.
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/ATtoc.html
>
> From there I think you must go to Waksman for more detail, but
> Waksman's still on my shelf, yet to be scanned. But you can find
> Waksman online here at Cornell, though the format is very clumsy,
> IMHO:
>
> http://snipurl.com/qbmd
> Core Historical Literature of Agriculture
> Title: Principles of soil microbiology
> Author: Waksman, Selman A. 1888-1973.
> Print Source: Principles of soil microbiology
> Waksman, Selman A. 1888-1973.
> The Williams & Wilkins Company,
> Baltimore :
> 1927.
>
> http://snipurl.com/qbmc
> Core Historical Literature of Agriculture
> Title: Humus: origin, chemical composition, and importance in nature
> Author: Waksman, Selman A. 1888-1973.
> Print Source: Humus: origin, chemical composition, and importance in
> nature
> Waksman, Selman A. 1888-1973.
> The Williams & Wilkins Company,
> Baltimore :
> 1936.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
>>Tom Irwin
>>
>>
>>Snip
>>
>>48 hours later the temp of the pile was 160F (71C)!!!. This wasn't
>>the center of the pile, but rather 12 inches in. I took readings at
>>4 places.
>>
>> Are there any negatives to achieving such high temps(160F or
>> more)?
>> Snip
>>
>>Hi All,
>> Composting glycerine might not only be an environmentally sound
>>way to eliminate the coproduct, but it may actually speed up
>>decomposition of the materials in the pile.
>> I successfully split the glycerine coproduct using phosphoric
>>acid (thanks Todd, Ken, and JTF). I have about twenty gallons (76L)
>>of crude glycerine. How do I deal with it in an environmentally
>>responsible way?
>> Two days ago I built a compost pile adding glycerine as I built
>>the pile. All the while I was thinking what a waste of energy. It
>>would be better to add the glycerine to a ferment or to make biogas.
>>In the end I had added almost 4 gallons of the stuff ... diluted in
>>water ... to a pile that was a bit more than 60 cubic feet (5+ feet
>>high X 7+ feet diameter).
>> 48 hours later the temp of the pile was 160F (71C)!!!. This
>>wasn't the center of the pile, but rather 12 inches in. I took
>>readings at 4 places.
>> Keith might take issue with the geometry of my compost piles.
>>They are, essentially flattened cones made of layers of grass
>>clippings & weeds, then leaves, then manure. I diluted the glycerine
>>w. water and sprinkled it on the dry, leaf layer.
>> I rarely take temp readings of compost piles, but I do stick my
>>hand in after a day or two to make sure they are heating up. The
>>times that I've made readings, the temps were typically in the 140F
>>area.
>> While saprophytic soil microbes do well at high temps, most
>>soil pathogens are killed along with weed seeds and
>>insect eggs at temps of 140F.
>> Are there any negatives to achieving such high temps(160F or more)?
>> It might be that adding glycerine is not such a waste of energy
>>as I thought. Alcohols and sugars are readily metabolized by
>>microbes. They could supply the energy, which, along with other
>>materials in the heap would allow the bacteria and fungi to rapidly
>>reach a quorum, a critical mass, and the metabolism of the mass
>>generate the heat that in turn would speed up enzyme activity ....
>>if it doesn't kill them.
>> I would like to know if the addition of glycerine enhances the
>>rate of decomposition in a compost pile.
>> I had previously added some glycerine to a hot pile as it was
>>being turned. It did not seem to have any harmful effect,
>>but I didn't have anything concrete to compare it to (temp readings
>>of other piles vs this one), and at the time did not suspect that it
>>might actually be of benefit.
>> For what it's worth,
>> Tom
>
>
>
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