You seem rather cross, Chris. >Magnesol washed sample were superior. Have you done any tests with >Magnesol to come to your conclusion that it is inferior to water >washing? Have you evidence that these results are indeed incorrect, >or doctored in any way?
I reached no such conclusion. I expressed a valid doubt and asked for some evidence. The burden of proof is not on me nor on the consumer when the makers of a commercial product make claims for it, it's on them. You're siding with risk assessment, we go by the Precautionary Principle here, we ask questions, and "is that not why we are here!!!!!". >Where I live the only water I have available is heavily treated to >be potable and it is currently getting scarse (Drought orders are >already in effect in South England, the last time this happened was >in the 70's) So personally if I can find a way around utilising a >scarce and precious commodity then I will try it, is that not why we >are here!!!!! Who's trying to stop you? On the other hand, as we all know or should by now, the water resource you'd be using need not be wasted, and I'm afraid I have to ask whether you use a flush toilet that uses fresh water? You've provided us with one reason anyway for using Magnesol (presuming it passes the other hurdles Todd mentioned, and me), and you've also offered some test results below, which is what I asked for though I haven't read them yet, so what's the problem? Isn't that why we're here? Would you say that you've reached a stage with learning the process where you can easily make homebrew biodiesel yourself that gets within the standard specs with a few hours spent stir-washing it so you can do some comparative tests yourself? I didn't get the impression that was established with the results you gave us, please correct me if I'm wrong. Best Keith >Keith Addison wrote: >>Very nice Todd. >> >> >>>"The end result of this biodiesel washing with Magnesol is that >>>you will have >>>used a lot of water and a lot of time." >>> >>>Me thinks they need a proof reader. >>> >> >>LOL! Methinks they do. Would you agree that such slips are telling? >>Just circumstantial evidence, but still. There is a problem, it's >>much more difficult to get 100% accurate proofreading onscreen than >>on paper (you can probably find typos at JtF too). But that stray >>"Magnesol" in there is just sloppy, what else is sloppy? >> >>Something to add might be whether Magnesol really does give the same results. >> >>If it's time-saving that's the aim there are ways round that >>without becoming more dependent on anyone. >> >>I don't accept it gives better-quality results unless maybe you're >>starting with a poorly completed product, in which case the >>magnesol is just masking the problem (like mist-washing). >> >>You can easily get within the standard specs with well-made >>homebrew biodiesel plus a few hours spent stir-washing it. If you >>GC'd the result and compared it with a sample of the same batch of >>homebrew dry-washed with Magnesol, what would it show? >> >>Has anybody seen such results? >> >>Best >> >>Keith >> >> >> >>>The presumption is made that the following is from Dallas Group's >>>PR about Magnesol. >>>.................................................. >>> >>>"Water in biodiesel is not a good idea". Most people would agree this is a >>>true statement." >>> >>>Dohhh!!! Perhaps that's why it's removed? >>> >>>"Yet most people continue to wash their biodiesel with water, and then go on >>>to dry their biodiesel after washing." >>> >>>"The end result of this biodiesel washing with Magnesol is that >>>you will have >>>used a lot of water and a lot of time." >>> >>>Me thinks they need a proof reader. >>> >>>That and they conveniently(?) neglect to mention that use of >>>Magnesol uses a lot of Magnesol and probably some rather hefty >>>energy inputs. >>> >>>On the Magnesol side: >>> >>>A) Magnesol is not universal. >>>B) Use of Magnesol marries the manufacturer to a vendor. >>>C) Rather costly filter presses are required to remove Magnesol >>>from the fuel stream. >>>D) Expended Magnesol must be handled as a solid waste, inclusive >>>of the filtrate. >>>E) Energy expenditures are required to manufacture and transport >>>synthetic magnesium silicate (Magnesol). >>> >>>As a parenthetical aside, suggestion has been made and perhaps >>>research conducted on feeding the expended Magnesol (sodium >>>silicate) with filtrate to livestock. Soap, glycerol, FFA, mono- >>>and di-glyceride laden sodium silicate as animal feed. Positively >>>yummy, no doubt. This seems almost reminiscent of the days when >>>feeding cement dust to livestock was not abnormal. >>> >>>On the water side: >>> >>>A) Water is universal, by and large. >>>B) Water has a dual utility, as easily treated wash water can be >>>reused as gray water irrigation. >>>C) Acid/Base systems don't require inordinate amounts of water (or >>>Magnesol for that matter). >>> >>>There is an extra heating cycle in a water wash system than a dry >>>wash (Magnesol). Both flash the methanol from the fuel prior to >>>washing. But the water wash system requires elevating from wash >>>temperature to flash temperature. >>> >>>Both systems can use the heat recovered from their final flash to >>>preheat the feedstock. >>> >>>This is where the energy equation between the two systems should >>>be constructed to see precisely which uses more energy - >>>manufacturing, transporting, filtering and disposing of Magnesol >>>or elevating the temperature of the cooled, wet-washed, fuel to >>>flash temp. Doubtful that Dallas Group would divulge their energy >>>expenditures from manufacturing. >>> >>>All in all they both have their place. Neither is necessarily >>>superior over the other. >>> >>>Todd Swearingen >>> >>>Bruno M. wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> >The main reason I am trying out Magnesol is because it is going to >be MUCH easier to integrate into my continuous process than water >washing. >I saw some test data from Biodiesel magazine (March 2005), which >compared 2 samples. One was water washed and one was Magnesol >washed, the test results from the Magnesol washed sample were >superior. Have you done any tests with Magnesol to come to your >conclusion that it is inferior to water washing? Have you evidence >that these results are indeed incorrect, or doctored in any way? >Where I live the only water I have available is heavily treated to >be potable and it is currently getting scarse (Drought orders are >already in effect in South England, the last time this happened was >in the 70's) So personally if I can find a way around utilising a >scarce and precious commodity then I will try it, is that not why we >are here!!!!! I have nowhere at my workplace to collect rainwater >and it would be unrealistic to transport water collected at home to >my workplace where I process my diesel! > >Extracts from the said article: >IOWA STATE UNIVERSITY >OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY College of Engineering >Mechanical Engineering Department >2025 Black Engineering Building >Ames, Iowa 50011-2161 >515/294-1423 >FAX 515/294-3261 >http://www.me.iastate.edu/ >Evaluation of Magnesol R60 as an >Alternative to Water Washing >During Biodiesel Production >Final Report >to the >Dallas Group of America >Jon Van Gerpen >Kirk Menges >Department of Mechanical Engineering >Iowa State University >May 3, 2004 >1 >Objective >The purpose of this project was to compare a commercial product >called Magnesol R60, produced by The Dallas Group of America, Inc., >to water washing for removal of soap, free glycerin, and total >glycerin from biodiesel produced from soybean oil and yellow grease. >The biodiesel pilot plant located at the Biomass Energy Conversion >Center (BECON) Facility in Nevada, Iowa was used to produce the >biodiesel and conduct the experiments. >Biodiesel Production >Biodiesel is an alternative fuel for compression ignition engines >that has many benefits over petroleum-based diesel fuels including >lower emissions and the potential for reducing global warming. It >can be made from many different oilseed feedstocks and animal >greases along with different alcohols and catalysts. The pilot plant >at the BECON facility can produce biodiesel from soybean oil, yellow >grease, and restaurant grease, using methanol and sodium methoxide >as the other two ingredients of the reaction. >Soybean oil or pre-treated grease (grease from the esterification >process described below) is reacted for 1-2 hours with the >appropriate amount of methanol and catalyst (sodium methoxide) to >produce biodiesel in a process called transesterification. Heat and >agitation help speed the process of transesterification, so the >temperature of the reactor is held at 140F. This temperature is >slightly below the boiling point of the methanol. A condenser is >located on the top of the sealed reactor for condensing methanol, >which returns to the reaction. Agitation is provided using a >constant speed mixing motor with a propeller on the top of the >mixing shaft and a paddle on the bottom. Fixed baffles inside the >reactor assist with mixing of the fluids. Sometimes the reaction is >conducted in two steps. In the first step, approximately 80% of the >methanol and catalyst are added and the mixture is agitated for an >hour. Then, the free glycerin that has formed is allowed to settle >and is removed. Then, the remaining 20% of the methanol and catalyst >is added and the reaction is continued for another hour. Finally, >additional glycerol that has formed is removed. This approach >provides a very complete reaction while potentially using less >methanol than the single step reaction. Upon completion of the >reaction, the mixture is pumped from the reactor into the methanol >recovery system for methanol removal from the fluid. >Biodiesel enters the methanol recovery system where it is pre-heated >by an economizer heat exchanger before entering the main heater >exchanger, which heats the fluid to 240F. The fluid then enters the >flash vessel where methanol is flashed from the fluid and drawn >through a condenser. The liquid methanol is collected in a storage >tank where it will be sent to a methanol purification system for >reuse in the biodiesel production process. Biodiesel exiting the >methanol recovery system is pumped into the separation tank where >free glycerin settles to the bottom of the cone bottom tank. The >glycerin is pumped from the separation tank into a storage tank and >will eventually be sent to a glycerin purification system. The >by-products of biodiesel production, soap and residual methanol and >free glycerin, are removed from the fuel at the biodiesel pilot >plant by washing with hot, softened water. >The washing process in the biodiesel pilot plant involves spraying >hot, softened water through spray nozzles on to the top of the >biodiesel so the droplets fall through the fuel until they collect >at the bottom of the tank with the soap that each droplet was able >to extract from the >1 >biodiesel. After dispensing an amount of water equal to 50 percent >of the weight of the biodiesel fuel, the water, soap, and biodiesel >mixture are recirculated in the tank by pumping the fluid from the >bottom of the tank and spraying it through the nozzles in the top of >the tank. This typically takes 15 minutes. Then 30-45 minutes is >allowed for settling, which allows the separation of the water/soap >(and some glycerin) mixture from the biodiesel. The water/soap >mixture is pulled off the bottom of the tank and a fresh batch of >hot, softened water is sprayed into the tank and the process of >mixing and settling is repeated again for a total of 4 to 5 washes. >The last step in the biodiesel production process involves the >drying of the fuel. >The drying system consists of an economizer heat exchanger that >preheats the incoming biodiesel before being heated in the main heat >exchanger to 240F. The biodiesel is then sprayed through a nozzle >into a flash tank under vacuum (around 28 inches of mercury) where >the water is flashed off while the dried biodiesel is pumped from >the flash tank into a storage tank. It is then analyzed in order to >determine if it meets the fuel specifications for use in a >compression ignition engine (ASTM D 6751). >The esterification process, or the process for pretreating grease >prior to making biodiesel, is needed for greases or oils containing >free fatty acid (FFA) amounts that are higher than 1.5 to 2 percent. >The yellow grease used at the pilot plant is usually between 8 and >10% FFA. The pretreatment process is needed to reduce the FFA and >prepare the grease for the base catalyzed process >(transesterification). Without this process, soap would be produced >when adding the base catalyst to the high free fatty acid grease in >the biodiesel production process. >Pretreatment consists of determining the FFA of the oil or grease >and then adding an acid catalyst and alcohol, in amounts based on >the FFA, and heating and agitating the mixture for 1-2 hours before >allowing it to separate into two phases. The acid and alcohol used >in the pretreatment process at the pilot plant are sulfuric acid and >methanol. The upper phase consists mainly of a water/methanol >mixture and some free fatty acids, while the bottom layer is made up >mostly of lower FFA grease or oil, some esters, and methanol. The >two phases must be kept warm in order to prevent the grease or oil >from congealing and trapping the methanol/water mixture. The mixture >is kept at a temperature of 140F by heating coils inside the tank. >The upper phase is removed and the lower phase is supplied to the >main reactor for the transesterification reaction. >Experiment >In preparation for the comparison, biodiesel was made from soybean >oil and yellow grease using the biodiesel pilot plant. The amount of >soybean oil, methanol, and catalyst (sodium methoxide) used in the >experiments is given in Table 1. The amount of yellow grease, >methanol, and sulfuric acid for the pre-treatment (esterification >process) along with the amount of pre-treated grease, methanol, and >catalyst (sodium methoxide) used for the transesterification process >is also given in Table 1. Note that a two-step transesterfication >reaction was used for both feedstocks, but only the yellow grease >required pretreatment. >2 >Table 1: Biodiesel Reaction Material and Amounts Soybean Oil 1st >Reaction2nd Reaction(80%)(20%)Biodiesel ReactionAmount ( lbs.)Amount >( lbs.)Soybean Oil @ 0.70% FFA520520Methanol95.6823.92Sodium >Methoxide6.371.59Yellow GreasePre-treatment ReactionAmount ( >lbs.)Yellow Grease @ 11.6% FFA480Methanol125.04Sulfuric >Acid2.7880%20%Biodiesel ReactionAmount ( lbs.)Amount ( lbs.)Yellow >Grease @ 1.62% FFA460450Methanol84.6421.16Sodium Methoxide8.212.05 >For all reactions the temperature of the mixture of fluids was kept >at 140F with constant agitation in order to achieve as complete a >reaction as possible. Each reaction was timed for an hour and a half >after the reaction reached 140F. After the reaction period, each >batch of biodiesel was sent through the methanol recovery system, so >methanol could be removed from the fuel before separation. Methanol >must be removed from the fuel because it reduces the effectiveness >of the Magnesol. The methanol also contributes to a lower flash >point, which can affect the classification of the fuel as flammable >or non-flammable. Each batch of biodiesel was tested in a >Marten-Pensky Flashpoint apparatus in order to make sure the >flashpoint of the fuel was well above 150F. In each case, as the >flashpoint of each biodiesel batch was determined, a graph was used >to determine the percent of methanol in the fuel based on the >flashpoint. For each case, the methanol percentage in the fuel was >determined to be low enough that it would not skew the results of >the experiment. Once it was determined that the methanol percentage >was low enough in each batch of fuel, half was set aside for >water-washing while the rest was used in the Magnesol experiment. >The batches of biodiesel that were set aside for washing were washed >according to the process used at the biodiesel pilot plant. This >involved 4 washes using hot, softened water along with agitation, >with fresh water used for each wash. After separation, the biodiesel >fuel was dried using a flash vacuum drying process. All batches sent >through the drying system were heated to 240F and then throttled >from a pressure of 25 psig to a vacuum of 27-28 in Hg. A sample of >fuel from each batch was tested for moisture in a Karl-Fischer >Moisture Titrator to make sure the moisture level met the fuel >specification required for biodiesel. Upon completion of the drying >process and moisture determination, each batch of biodiesel was put >in a 55 gallon barrel and labeled according to the feedstock that >was used to produce the fuel. >To conduct the Magnesol tests, an agitated tank and its >corresponding piping system were washed with hot water and caustic. >As the hot water and caustic were being recirculated through >3 >the degumming piping system, heat was supplied to the fluid to help >with the cleaning process. This involved multiple washes and >disposal of the water caustic mixture. Then, the unwashed and >methanol-free soybean oil and yellow grease biodiesel were each >added separately to the tank along with the corresponding Magnesol >for each separate experiment. The Magnesol and biodiesel mixture was >heated to 180F and recirculated for approximately 30 minutes before >being filtered using a 5 micron sock-type filter. It was determined >that diatomaceous earth needed to be added to the Magnesol and >biodiesel mixture in order to assist in the development of a layer >of ìcakeî on the filter. Without a layer of ìcakeî, the finer >Magnesol particles tended to avoid being trapped in the filter and >remained in the biodiesel. After each experiment the biodiesel was >tested for soap level. >Results >Table 2 shows the properties of the biodiesel after being >water-washed and dried compared with the original unwashed >biodiesel. While the washing process reduced the soap level from 651 >ppm to 13 ppm, the data show that the amount of free and total >glycerin actually increased. The increase in free and total glycerin >is unlikely to be correct and may indicate non-representative >sampling of the biodiesel. The data also show a slight increase in >the cetane number from 51.0 to 54.1. This is within the variability >of the cetane test procedure. >Table 3 shows the effect of two different adsorbent treatments, >Magnesol R60 and a compound identified as Sample B. Comparison to >the unwashed biodiesel described in Table 2 shows that the Magnesol >reduced the soap level from 651 ppm to 4 and 5 ppm, >Table 2. ASTM D6751 Results for Water-washed Soybean Biodiesel >ASTM Specification ASTM D6751 specification Unwashed, Untreated >M.E.Washed And Dried M.E. Free Glycerin, % 0.020 maximum 0.033 0.084 >Total Glycerin, % 0.240 maximum 0.209 0.282 Flash Point, C 130 >minimum >190 170 Water and Sediment, vol. % 0.050 maximum 0.10 0.15 >Carbon Residue, % 0.050 maximum <0.010 0.050 Sulfated Ash, mass % >0.020 maximum 0.000 0.005 Kinematic Viscosity, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.9 - 6.0 >4.127 4.207 Total Sulfur, mass % 0.05 maximum 0.00006 0.00014 Cetane >Number 47 minimum 51.0 54.1 Cloud Point, C Report 0.0 0.0 Copper >Corrosion No. 3 maximum 1a 1a Acid Number, mg KOH/gram 0.80 maximum >0.32 0.31 Phosphorus, mass % 0.001 maximum 0.0007 0.0006 ppm Soap No >specification 651 13 >4 >Table 3. ASTM D6751 Results for Adsorbent Treated Soybean Biodiesel >ASTM Specification ASTM D6751 specification 1% MAGNESOL R601% DALLAS >SAMPLE B Free Glycerin, % 0.020 maximum 0.005 0.003 Total Glycerin, >% 0.240 maximum 0.191 0.168 Flash Point, C 130 minimum 200 189 >Water and Sediment, vol. % 0.050 maximum 0.04 0.10 Carbon Residue, % >0.050 maximum <0.010 0.013 Sulfated Ash, mass % 0.020 maximum 0.000 >0.003 Kinematic Viscosity, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.9 - 6.0 4.097 4.109 Total >Sulfur, mass % 0.05 maximum 0.00002 0.00006 Cetane Number 47 minimum >51.3 50.9 Cloud Point, C Report 0.0 0.0 Copper Corrosion No. 3 >maximum 1a 1a Acid Number, mg KOH/gram 0.80 maximum 0.27 0.38 >Phosphorus, mass % 0.001 maximum 0.0005 0.0000 ppm Soap No >specification 4 5 >and also reduced the free and total glycerol level. The acid value >was decreased for the Magnesol R60 and increased for the Sample B. >These changes in acid value are not believed to be significant and >are probably within the range of error for the measurement. >Table 4 shows the corresponding results for the yellow grease-based >biodiesel. Note that an important difference between the biodiesel >from this feedstock and the soybean-based biodiesel is the high >initial soap level of 2458 ppm. When this biodiesel was passed >through the methanol recovery system, the removal of the methanol >caused the soap to come out of solution and plug the screens used to >protect the pumps. This prevented the methanol recovery system from >working properly. To ensure that the methanol was removed, a portion >of the biodiesel was processed through a batch-type solvent recovery >still. Thus, the results presented in Tables 4 and 5 show data for >samples of biodiesel that had not been through the still and a >sample that had gone through the still. >In Table 4, the water-washed biodiesel showed a reduction in soap >from 2458 to 91 ppm. There was also a reduction in free glycerin >although still not to the level required by the biodiesel standard. >Table 5 shows the properties of the biodiesel samples that had and >had not been treated with the still and then processed with the >Magnesol R60 The sample that had not gone through the still was >treated with 3% Magnesol R60 and the sample that had gone through >the still was treated with 2% Magnesol R60. The results for the two >cases are very similar with equal flash points, indicating similar >methanol contents, and reductions in soap to 14 ppm for the sample >that had not gone through the still and 4 ppm for the sample that >had gone through the still. Both sample met the requirements for >ASTM D 6751 except that the sample that had not been through the >still was a little high on water and sediment. This may have been >caused by Magnesol breaking through the filter. >5 >Table 4. ASTM D6751 Results for Water washed Yellow Grease Methyl Ester >ASTM Specification ASTM D6751 specification Unwashed, Untreated >M.E.Washed And Dried M.E. (not through still) Free Glycerin, % 0.020 >maximum 0.063 0.037 Total Glycerin, % 0.240 maximum 0.220 0.185 >Flash Point, C 130 minimum 179 >190 Water and Sediment, vol. % >0.050 maximum 0.70 0.06 Carbon Residue, % 0.050 maximum 0.060 0.013 >Sulfated Ash, mass % 0.020 maximum 0.007 0.004 Kinematic Viscosity, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.9 - 6.0 5.095 5.107 Total Sulfur, mass % 0.05 maximum >0.00146 0.00139 Cetane Number 47 minimum 57.8 60.3 Cloud Point, C >Report 10.0 9.0 Copper Corrosion No. 3 maximum 1a 1a Acid Number, mg >KOH/gram 0.80 maximum 0.21 0.27 Phosphorus, mass % 0.001 maximum >0.0009 0.0008 ppm Soap No specification 2458 91 >Table 5. ASTM D6751 Results for Adsorbent treated Yellow Grease Methyl Ester >ASTM Specification ASTM D6751 specification 3% Magnesol R60 (ME not >through still)2% Magnesol R60 (ME through still) Free Glycerin, % >0.020 maximum 0.009 0.004 Total Glycerin, % 0.240 maximum 0.151 >0.147 Flash Point, C 130 minimum 168 168 Water and Sediment, vol. % >0.050 maximum 0.10 0.005 Carbon Residue, % 0.050 maximum 0.000 0.000 >Sulfated Ash, mass % 0.020 maximum 0.003 0.002 Kinematic Viscosity, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] 1.9 - 6.0 5.089 5.060 Total Sulfur, mass % 0.05 maximum >0.00129 0.00133 Cetane Number 47 minimum 57.1 57.4 Cloud Point, C >Report 10.0 9.0 Copper Corrosion No. 3 maximum 1a 1a Acid Number, mg >KOH/gram 0.80 maximum 0.33 0.32 Phosphorus, mass % 0.001 maximum >0.0008 0.0008 ppm Soap No specification 14 4 >6 >Conclusions >The Magnesol R60 provided a greatly improved reduction in soap and >free and bound glycerin when compared to the traditional water >washing process. Final soap and free and total glycerin levels were >less for the Magnesol than for water washing. While the biodiesel >producer has the additional costs of the Magnesol and disposal of >the spent material, this should be justified by the reduction in >water usage, wastewater treatment, and the additional processing >steps needed to separate the emulsions that often form when water >washing biodiesel containing high soap levels. >7Return to TOC _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
