Yes you are right but I made the assumption that the integration period was for one second. Well it would have to be a pretty darned bright light to penetrate what was it 8" into tissue? Yikes! That would mean the light could shine right through my arm! ;)
Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: > A joule is a watt second. If you took 100 seconds to deliver a > joule then you would need a light output of 0.01 joules/second. > > Kirk > > */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: > > Holy crap I don't think they are using diodes to get that intensity. 4 > joules/cm^2 Isn't that like 40 suns intensity? How do they keep from > burnig these tissues up? > > Joe > > Kirk McLoren wrote: > > > Thank you Mr Kelly for the fascinating information. I will try to > post > > some url's for references I have found sometime today. I am at the > > moment trying to get some information from Marubeni America Corp > re some > > illuminators. The Doctor at U of Wisconsin said that the ir > penetrated > > 23cm at useful energy levels.I take that to be about 8 inches of > tissue. > > Dosage was 4 joules per cm2 per treatment at the surface. > > > > I had seen this stuff before but when faced with the possibility of > > putting an injured stud down got very interested in accelerating > healing. > > > > Kirk > > > > */Thomas Kelly /* wrote: > > > > Bob, > > You Wrote: > > "40%-wow, and how does this light get to the mitochondria? what > > photosynthetic apparatus exists in the mitochondria that isn't > > reported in > > any current biochemistry textbook? This is an astounding revelation > > if true. I googled around a bit and find nothing. Any hints as to > > where to > > look for support for such a claim?" > > > > > > This might take a while ..... you might think it's a stretch, but I > > think > > a relationship between light and energy harvest in the mitochondria > > is at > > least a possibility. I have no idea of a specific %, or how such a > > relationship would serve a purpose ..... most cells of multicellular > > organisms don't get much exposure to light. > > > > When one examines the ATP harvested in mitochondria by the > oxidation of > > organic compounds ("Oxidative Phophorylation") > > and the formation of ATP within plants cells utilizing light energy > > ("Photophosphorylation) the similarities far outweigh the > > differences. Both > > involve elecrons being passed from higher to lower energy levels > > through a > > series of electron transport molecules. Both involve using the energy > > released in the formation of proton (H+) gradients across membranes. > > Both > > include special membrane passageways" (ATP synthetase complexes) > > that allow > > the H+ to flow down the gradient through the otherwise impermeable > > membrane > > (to H+) and capture the energy they release in ATP molecules. The key > > difference is the source of energy. The question seems to be: Can > light > > energy increase mitochondrial energy harvest? > > > > Biology (5th Edition) by Helena Curtis & N. Sue Barnes > > "Mechanisms of Stomatal Movements" pp. 653 - 655. > > > > "It has long been known that the osmotic movement of water is > > involved in > > the opening and closing of the stomata. > > ........ the critical factor affecting the osmotic movement of water > > into > > and out of the cells is the potassium ion (K+). > > With an increase in K+ concentration, the stomata open, and with a > > decrease > > they close. > > ........ Hydrogen ions (H+) are pumped in the opposite direction, > > (of K+), > > producing a decreased H+ conc within the guard cells of open stomata. > > The active transport of K+ ions between the guard cells and the > > surrounding epidermal cells is, of course, an energy-requiring > > process. The > > energy source is not yet known, but, on the basis of present > > evidence, one > > of two possibilities seem likely." > > 1. (ATP formed by photosynthesis in chloroplasts of the guard cells) > > > > 2. "Another possibility is that the transport of H+ ions, in a > > direction > > opposite to that of the K+ ions, establishes an electrochemical > > gradient > > down which the K+ ions move. (My asterisks)**** If this should be > > the case, > > the transport of K+ ions into and out of the guard cells - and thus, > > the > > opening and closing of the stomata - would be > > yet another example of a vital process powered by a chemiosmotic > > mechanism > > (page 197)." > > > > p. 197 Describes how energy is harvested by mitochondria as a > result of > > the formation of a "proton gradient" (H+ gradient) between the > > matrix and > > the intermembranal space of mitochondria. "Potential energy stored > > in the > > gradient is > > released" (as H+ flow down the gradient through ATP-synthetase > > complexes) > > "and captured in the formation of ATP" > > > > (We're getting there) Still p 197: > > "The proton gradient is established as electrons move down the > electron > > transport chain.At three transition points in the chain, significant > > drops > > occur in the amount of potentail energy held by the electrons. As a > > consequence, relatively large amounts of energy are released at > each of > > these three steps - as electrons move from FMN to coenzyme Q ....." > > > > My Note: FMN is Flavin MonoNucleotide (derived from riboflavin), > a key > > player in the electron transport chain within mitochondria. Closely > > related > > FAD (Flavin Adenine Dinucleotide) is a source of the electrons that > > are fed > > into the electron transport chain. It transports electrons from the > > Krebs > > Cycle within the mitochondrial matrix to the e- transport chain > > embedded in > > the inner mitochondrial membrane. > > > > MY POINT: Flavin compounds play key roles in energy harvest > within the > > mitochondria. > > > > Curtis and Barnes (pp. 654 - 655): > > "Blue light has long been known to stimulate stomatal opening > > independent of > > CO2 concentration. When isolated guard cells from onion are > > illuminated with > > blue light in the presence of potassium ions, they swell. The > > light-absorbing pigment (which is thought to be located in either > > the cell > > membrane or the vacuole membrane) promotes the uptake of K+ ions > by the > > guard cells. Recent studiers have demonstrated that this uptake of > > K+ ions > > is a secondary effect, and that the primary effect of the > > interaction of > > blue light with the pigment is to stimulate the pumping of H+ ions > > out of > > the guard cells.Although these experiments provide support for the > > hypothesis that an electrochemical gradient of H+ ions powers K+ > > transport, > > they do not rule out the possible involvement of ATP." > > > > **** (My asterisks) "The blue-absorbing pigment, which would be > > yellow in > > color, is thought to be flavin; as you may recall (page195), > > flavin-containing nucleotides are among the electron carriers > > involved in > > cellular respiration in the mitochondria." > > > > Additionally: > > Cyclic electron flow occurs in plant cells when additional ATP is > > needed beyond that for C-fixation and reduction. Light energy is > > absorbed > > by a pigment. Electrons are boosted to higher energy levels and > passed > > through a series of e- acceptors (including FMN) ----> a proton (H+) > > gradient. ATP is formed, but no O2 is released, no CO2 is fixed, no > > sugars > > formed > > It is believed to be the most primitive photosynthetic mechanism. > It is > > essentially Photosystem I acting independently of Photosystem II > > with e- > > recycling back to the pigment after releasing the captured light > > energy ----> ATP > > > > It took me a while, but you can't help but be fascinated with the > fact > > that flavins are involved in energy harvesting processes within the > > mitochondria and very likely play a role, when stimulated by light, > > in an > > energy-requiring process in guard cells of plants as well as being > > involved > > in a light-absorbing, energy - yielding process that is of primitive > > origins, but still used by plants and some bacteria. Further, that > > each of > > the processes involve establishing proton gradients across cell > > membranes. > > May be "nothing more" than nature's penchant for utilizing very > similar > > chemicals for apparently different ends. Curious, none the less. > > Tom > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "bob allen" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:18 PM > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Healing with light > > > > > > Kirk McLoren wrote: > > > http://www.mcw.edu/display/router.asp?DocID=1 > > > > > > put light in the search box and you will have access to some > pdf's of > > > published papers. They say there is photochemistry besides > > chlorophyll. > > > I remember an article at NASA said 40% of the mitochondrial > chemical > > > energy was instead supplied directly by photons. > > > > > > 40%-wow, and how does this light get to the mitochondria? what > > photosynthetic apparatus exists in the mitochondria that isn't > reported > > in any current biochemistry textbook? This is an astounding > revelation > > if true. I googled around a bit and find nothing. Any hints as to > where > > to look for support for such a claim? > > > > > > sorry if i find this hard to grasp but you suggest that NASA says > that > > almost half of the energy required to run my body comes from > photons- I > > bet calculations from first principles- caloric values of food eaten > > compared to body temperature for base metabolism wouldn't show a 40% > > discrepancy. but I could be wrong. > > > > > > There has been testing > > > at a childrens cancer hospital and others. Looks really good. > > > > > > initial results nearly always look good, otherwise the wouldn't be > > reported. However, children are particularly susceptible to the > placebo > > effect. Everything from acute pain to viral infections (warts) > have been > > resolved via a placebo effect. Do you think these results included > > consideration of the placebo effect? > > > > > > > > > > Did you use the link at the bottom of the article? > > > > yes but I didn't see much more to convince me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirk > > > > > > */bob allen /* wrote: > > > > > > Howdy Kirk, > > > > > > I looked over the report and although the claims sound promising, I > > > am bothered by the rather > > > shallow explanation of the effect: > > > > > > So far, what we see in patients and what we see in laboratory cell > > > cultures, all point to one > > > conclusion," said Dr. Whelan. "The near-infrared light emitted by > > > these LEDs seems to be perfect > > > for increasing energy inside cells. This means whether you're on > > > Earth in a hospital, working on > > > a submarine under the sea, or on your way to Mars inside a > > > spaceship, the LEDs boost energy to > > > the cells and accelerate healing." > > > > > > just what the heck do they mean by boosting energy in the cell? > > > other than cells with a > > > photosynthetic apparatus, there is no mechanism for turning > > > electromagnetic energy into ATP, the > > > energy currency of all cells. near IR energy would warm the cells, > > > but so would a 25 watt light > > > bulb or a candle. If the light stimulates growth factors, protein > > > synthesis, rna expression or > > > whatever say so, but don't give me some lame claim as to > "increasing > > > energy". This sound way too > > > mystical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirk McLoren wrote: > > > > > > > > *Mice were blinded with methanol and 95% had their sight > restored.* > > > > > > > > Kirk > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > *http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002355.html* > > > > > > > > > > > > *Healing with Light Moves Beyond Fiction* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fans of the Star Trek television shows can recall many stirring > > > scenes of medical officers > > > > treating patients without drugs or surgery, using instead a > > > device the size of a cell phone that > > > > sends out light rays to "miraculously" heal wounds and cure > > > disease before their very eyes. Now, > > > > the use of light emitting diodes (LED) in the practice of > > > medicine has moved well beyond science > > > > fiction and into the real world. Soldiers injured by lasers in > > > combat, astronauts in space and > > > > children in cancer wards are already benefiting from the healing > > > properties of near-infrared > > > > light in ways that could only be imagined a few years ago. > > > Several research projects at the > > > > Medical College of Wisconsin are at the center of LED treatment > > > development and the application > > > > of new technology to a wide range of injury and illness. "The > > > potential is quite endless," said > > > > *Harry T. Whelan, MD* , Medical College Bleser Professor > > > > of Neurology, Pediatrics and Hyperbaric Medicine. "I like to say > > > that the history of medicine, > > > > since the beginning of time, has been poisons and knives. Drugs > > > usually poison some enzyme system > > > > for the benefit of the patient. Think about the drugs you take: > > > Digitalis is digitoxin; it's > > > > from the foxglove plant and it poisons your heart gently to help > > > you with cardiac disease. Motrin > > > > and aspirin basically poison the prostaglandin system to decrease > > > pain by poisoning the > > > > inflammatory cascade. Blood thinners basically poison the > > > clotting system, and on and on and on. > > > > "So all these drugs that we take are poisons carefully dosed to > > > help the patient. And then, of > > > > course, knives. That's surgery, in which you have to cut the > > > patient in order to cure. In this > > > > particular strategy, what we're trying to do is use the energy of > > > certain specific wavelengths of > > > > light, which are carefully studied in our research lab, to > > > determine those that will enhance the > > > > cells' normal biochemistry instead of poisoning something that is > > > supposed to occur or cutting > > > > at it. I consider that a paradigm shift in the entire approach to > > > medicine that has the > > > > potential, therefore, to alter all kinds of disease processes, > > > particularly any in which there's > > > > an energy crisis for the tissue." Light emitting diodes - > > > commonly used for clock displays and in > > > > many other electronic devices - produce near-infrared light, a > > > form of energy just outside the > > > > visible range. Cells exposed to LED light in this range have been > > > found to grow 150% to 200% > > > > faster than cells not given and LED "bath" because, in simple > > > terms, the light arrays speed up > > > > the healing process by increasing energy inside the cells. > > > *Relief for Young Cancer Patients* > > > > Much of the research into the use of LEDs in medicine has spun > > > off from projects funded by the > > > > Defense Department and the National Aeronautics and Space > > > Administration (NASA). For example, > > > > when LEDs worked well in providing light to grow plants on the > > > Space Station, researchers found > > > > that the diodes also showed promise in many medical applications. > > > NASA then funded Medical > > > > College research and clinical trials using LEDs to treat cancer > > > patients following bone marrow > > > > transplants. Mucositis, a very painful side effect of cancer > > > treatment, produces throat and mouth > > > > ulcerations and gastrointestinal problems so severe that health > > > suffers as chewing and > > > > swallowing food and drink become difficult or even impossible. In > > > the first trial at Children's > > > > Hospital of Wisconsin, LED treatment proved so successful in > > > treating mucositis in the young > > > > patients that another round of trials has been funded. "We have > > > now at Children's Hospital > > > > essentially prevented mucositis since we've been treating these > > > patients once a day for eighty > > > > seconds with our handheld light emitting diode arrays," said Dr. > > > Whelan. "Now we have the FDA > > > > (Food and Drug Administration) in collaboration with us > > > performing a multi-center trial > > > > throughout the United States and several foreign countries. If we > > > can replicate the results in > > > > other centers and reproduce that same data, which we have > > > published, that will become the > > > > standard of care. I contacted the FDA when we had achieved these > > > results, because it was pretty > > > > dramatic and we were actually surprised by how well it worked. > > > We're already well into the > > > > multi-center trial and we anticipate being done in five years. > > > "If a patient has cancer and you > > > > treat with the (current) standards, which are surgery, radiation > > > and chemotherapy, in some case > > > > you can cure the patient with standard treatment, which is great. > > > Then there will be those who > > > > have recurrences and you escalate into more and more aggressive > > > experimental therapies to try to > > > > save their life. Eventually, if you can kill the cancer no other > > > way, you give a lethal dose of > > > > chemotherapy and radiation to kill the tumor. "But then, so you > > > don't kill the patient, you > > > > rescue them by giving them a bone marrow transplant that replaces > > > the red blood cells and the > > > > white blood cells so you don't have clotting problems and bleed > > > to death or die from overwhelming > > > > infection or severe anemia. It does not rescue the mucous > > > membranes, the kidney, the liver, or > > > > all kinds of other areas where high-dose chemotherapy and > > > radiation can lead to side effects. The > > > > mucous membranes in particular become sore, hemorrhagic, and > > > extremely painful. This prevents > > > > the patients from eating or drinking anything so they become > > > dependent on intravenous feeding and > > > > wracked with pain in bone marrow transplant isolation wards." > > > *LEDs on the Battlefield* As a > > > > leading researcher in the general field of LED treatment, a > > > pediatric neurologist, and a medical > > > > officer in the US Naval Reserves with an extensive background of > > > various active duty military > > > > medicine postings, Dr. Whelan speaks enthusiastically about > > > positive outcomes that may have their > > > > beginnings on battlefields or in space but end up being applied > > > in places like the Children's > > > > Hospital cancer unit. He is principal investigator for the > > > "Persistence in Combat" research > > > > program at the Medical College, a program of the Defense Advanced > > > Research Projects Agency > > > > (DARPA). "DARPA was created in 1956 when the Russians launched > > > Sputnik," said Dr. Whelan. "The US > > > > government established this agency to start a space program to > > > catch up with the Russians before > > > > they put bombs above us. Then our own Congress decided that they > > > didn't want the military in > > > > this country to control space either, so shortly thereafter they > > > spun off NASA. DARPA continues > > > > to exist and is important for research. They look for high risk, > > > high gain projects, things that > > > > are so crazy that they might not work but if they do it's really > > > good. I like DARPA because > > > > they're interested in doing science like I thought it would be > > > cool when I was a kid, not science > > > > that's boring. "In the Defense Department work, the idea is rapid > > > battlefield care, self-care > > > > being the optimum. If you're in a modern special operations > > > scenario, you're in a small rapidly > > > > mobile unit expected to be self-sufficient that may not be > > > evacuated for over 96 hours if there > > === message truncated === > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! 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