We all need a bedtime story Joe Street wrote:
> Can you tell me a bed time story? > > Mike Weaver wrote: > >>Proof schmoof. I'm here to tell you it works. I pricked my finger on a >>spindle and slept for 99 days. >> >>-W >> >>Joe Street wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Bob; >>> >>>Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured >>>humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I >>>thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation >>>stuff goes on. I know this because my daughter has partial seizures >>>in that very area and she experiences pain every time she has a >>>seizure. If accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie >>>deactivation) in that area does that not mean effectively - >>>anaesthesia? That was how I understood the paper but perhaps I have it >>>all wrong. Anyways I felt it WAS the serious support for my argument >>>that you asked for. The other comment re the herb cure was just added >>>as an offhand remark, again with humour, not intended to change the >>>subject or run from anything, as I said I felt I had a strong >>>reference as it was. >>> >>>Cheers >>>Joe >>> >>>bob allen wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Joe Street wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob! I like the way you >>>>>cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected >>>>>the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the >>>>>sham group .....here >>>>> >>>>>"However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA >>>>>over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and >>>>>deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>I edited at this point as the following does not describe the >>>>aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites. >>>> >>>> Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, >>>>but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that >>>>acupuncture works as an anesthetic. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make >>>>>more money writing historical fiction for bushco.... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary >>>> >>>> No I haven't had >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic. But I do have a testimonial about >>>>>how a chinese herbalist >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>You're changing the subject Joe. I have yet to see you respond to my >>>>calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for >>>>anesthesia in major surgery. Come on, where the support for your claim. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>months and western treatments were worse than ineffective. But I know >>>>>you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better >>>>>on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that >>>>>time. LMAO. OK OK. lets just drop the subject I guess. We each have >>>>>our own viewpoints and leave it at that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>we already quite herbs but now you bring them back. The subject is >>>>proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery. A pretty simple premise >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Joe >>>>> >>>>>bob allen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Joe Street wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art01145 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery >>>>>>is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a >>>>>>method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked >>>>>>with needles. >>>>>> >>>>>>"Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain >>>>>>have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary >>>>>>findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the >>>>>>pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... >>>>>> >>>>>>Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point >>>>>>Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or >>>>>>minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject >>>>>>analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported >>>>>>distributed pain neuromatrix... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the >>>>>>treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have >>>>>>you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you >>>>>>know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far >>>>>>have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not >>>>>>trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, >>>>>>consistent with the scientific method. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my >>>>>>>point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got >>>>>>>to be better. >>>>>>>I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lot....none of >>>>>>>them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical >>>>>>>procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>>bob allen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure >>>>>>>>there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is >>>>>>>>not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are >>>>>>>>done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it >>>>>>>>but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because >>>>>>>>you >>>>>>>>or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>you show me what you have. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Joe Street wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Hey Bob; >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Ever been under general anaesthesia? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Remember how you felt when you >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>came around? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>groggy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did you puke? >>>>>>>>no >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Like the worst hangover you ever had? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>not at all >>>>>>>> Now >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna >>>>>>>>>be >>>>>>>>>easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of >>>>>>>>>death >>>>>>>>>for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really >>>>>>>>>have >>>>>>>>>to go get references for this? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific >>>>>>>>evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how >>>>>>>>it works. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>It's a waste of time for something so >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery >>>>>>>>>room >>>>>>>>>last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as >>>>>>>>a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two >>>>>>>>to support your claim? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>bob allen wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Joe Street wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Hi Bob; >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>snip >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without >>>>>>>>>>>anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body >>>>>>>>>>>with >>>>>>>>>>>anaesthetic. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim >>>>>>>>>>non-testimonial >>>>>>>>>>please. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 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