Hello Janet >Good Afternoon, > >I hope that everyone is using adequate safety precautions when >handling materials. >Tung oil, rich in phorbol esters, has been implicated in the >initiation of pharyngeal >cancers and the activation of Epstein-Barr virus. >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&; >list_uids=6297709&dopt=Abstract > >Many of the fumes from the basic oil stocks are carcinogenic, especially >in relation to the leukemias and lymphomas. Methanol is highly neurotoxic.
Yes but. Please see: More about methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth "... With information from: United Nations Environment Programme / International Labour Organisation / World Health Organization: International Programme On Chemical Safety, Environmental Health Criteria 196 - Methanol, from IPCS INCHEM, "Chemical Safety Information from Intergovernmental Organizations", in cooperation with the Canadian Centre for Occupational Health and Safety (CCOHS)" and elsewhere. >The biggest problem is with inhalation and contact. Most people >don't take the risks >seriously. Yes they do. On the other hand, many people overestimate the risks and overreact, which isn't much use either. Please also see: Safety: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#safe Hazards: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#haz >When processing, it is easy to get accustomed to fumes and spills. >>From a health standpoint, fume inhalation is especially risky when one has a >cold or the flu. > >Working in a very well ventilated area Work with closed processors. >and using the highest degree of cleanliness >only takes a little planning and care and pays the greatest of dividends. Safety and hazards have been a strong emphasis from the beginning. Safe processes and safe equipment and practices have been the standard here for quite a long time, the practices people here use (or should be using) are effective and safe, and continue to improve. The homebrewer casualty rate in seven years seems to be zero. I don't think anybody is being exposed to tung oil fumes. Jim isn't heating the stuff, just using it as varnish, which people have been doing for a very long time without ill-effect. I don't think anybody tries to process tung oil into biodiesel. >Many of the fumes from the basic oil stocks are carcinogenic There's no exposure with closed containers, but please tell us of any carcinogenic or other hazards you know of from exposure to the fumes of the basic oil stocks at the usual process temperature of 55 deg C. If we're facing hazards at that temperature, what's the hazard level in the average kitchen? "Depending on the temperature, the thermal degradation of vegetable oils is a polymerisation (200-300 deg C), a degradation of vegetable oils into acrolein, ketene, fatty acids then formation of alcanes, alcenes above 300 deg C and finally a formation of a gas-liquid mixture from around 500 deg C up." http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm FAIR-CT95-0627 - Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ >Janet > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Addison" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 10:55 AM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be >concerned with. > > >>Hi Jim >> >>>What good would the methanol test do? I don't see a relationship with >>>Polymerization. Now If you get a varnish layer like you would when >>>oxidation affects Tung oil thats a sure giveaway it seems. I may be >>>wrong but please explain. >>> >>>Also, Tung oil is a good subject here, Polymerization affects it about >>>as fast as anything going all you do is add oxygen and it happens. >>>However I have store it for years by just containering it to eliminate >>>the exposure to oxygen as I use it. I also understand the oil has >>>oxygen present during the packaging and seldom it is when I don' t open >>>a can that has been around for a couple years that there is not a Skin. >>>However the skin removed and the remaining oil is as good as ever until >>>you add oxygen again. >> >>I think the subject concerns Iodine Values as much as treatment and storage. >> >>>So my premise here is: Catalysts may be present but without the oxygen >>>they are inert to a point. Therefore, it becomes more important to >>>reduce Oxygen in storage and processing than variables that are out of >>>your control. However that is not to say one should introduce any Metal >>>ions in the process if at all avoidable. I think that Biodiesel can be >>>stored well if it is: >>>1) Stored with the containers full as possible. >>>2) Stored out of sunlight and in as cold a place as possible. >>>3) Processed in a way as to eliminate oxygen and metal ions in the >>>process as much as possible. >>>4) Use a hydrolyzed oil if you can get your hands on it. >>>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET >>>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING. >>>6) Get the fuel dry. ( use a Diesel fuel de-ox and fungicide.) >> >>One to add? >> >>>I think that Biodiesel can be >>>stored well if it is: >> >>7) Not made of soy oil. >> >>By the way... >> >>>5) If using a venturi it is absolute prerequisite that you DO NOT LET >>>AIR CHURN IN DURING PROCESSING. >> >>Soon! I've done no work with biodiesel for the last five months other >>than make it as needed, but the other work (farm) is winding down in >>October and then I'll be able to pick up some of the things I've been >>putting aside, including the venturi. >> >>All best >> >>Keith >> >> >>>I have been wrong before and submit this premise to the greater minds of >>>the list for scrutiny. Interesting subject this. >>> >>>Jim >>> >>>Joe Street wrote: >>> >>> > Hi Tom; >>> > >>> > Just for giggles, if you get time I'd be curious if the methanol test >>> > still passes on the 2 month old B100. I assume it will still oxidize >>> > even without the copper in constant contact. There is sure to be >>> > metal ions in the fuel from various sources. Now that the cold is >>> > here and I can only run B50 I'll slow down my production so I don't >>> > get ahead of myself like I did last winter. >>> > >>> > Joe >>> > >>> > Thomas Kelly wrote: >>> > >>> >>Joe, >>> >> Keep in mind that I had a 1M. piece of copper tubing >>>submerged in >> the >>> >>BD for over 3 months. I have a cubie of BD that was still crystal clear >>> >>after 2 months (the longest I have stored BD other than the polymerized >>> >>stuff) and it will go in the car. >>> >> The 50+ gal (200L) of BD in question is burning in my >>>oil-fired boiler. >>> >>I'm about half way through it and with the temps getting cooler >>>it should be >>> >>gone soon. Good riddance to it. >>> >> I like the silver lining you found in what looked like a >>>grey >> cloud. >>> >> Tom >>> >>----- Original Message ----- >>> >>From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>To: >>><biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >><mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>> >>Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:12 PM >>> >>Subject: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be >>> >>concernedwith. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>>While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this excellent paper; >>> >>> >>> >>>http://nationalbiodieselboard.com/resources/reportsdatabase/repor >>>ts/gen/19970612_gen-234.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20methyl%20ester%20wav >>>enumber%22 >>> >>> >>> >>>Which talks about issues surrounding fuel contamination and deposits. >>> >>>An earlier thread had comments from Tom Kelly regarding copper ions >>> >>>causing polymerization. According to this paper other metals such as >>> >>>aluminum and iron can catalyze polymerization when biodiesel >>>is >>>stored. >>> >>>This news is good and bad. The bad news is I think it is impossible to >>> >>>avoid these metal ions. Even if the system is all plastic or plastic >>> >>>lined I bet the WVO feedstocks are already chocked with metal, and the >>> >>>fuel will pick up metals in the vehicle anyways. This means that >>> >>>biodiesel should not be stored. DUH. Didn't I read that on J2F years >>> >>>ago? The good news is that the polymerization is slow at room >>> >>>temperature. This is also good news because it means that the >>>folks >>>who >>> >>>are trying to produce massive quantities of biodiesel are >>>going to >>>have >>> >>>a BIG problem that they just cannot solve because they need to >>>store >>>and >>> >>>transport the product. And their product has a poor shelf >>>life. Hmmm. >>>Of >>> >>>course the home brewer who can make fuel locally and use >>>it >>>immediately >>> >>>doesn't have to worry. Yaaaay. Chalk one up for sustainability. >>> >>>Uh I guess we already knew this eh Keith? But I never thought >>>of it >>>as >>> >>>a problem for big oil until now. >>> >>> >>> >>>Joe _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
