Joe Street wrote: > ' Hey Bob, where you goin with that gun in yer hand'.......careful > there Bob, you might shoot yourself in the foot. If you are saying > that there is NOTHING in homeopathic products ( and repeating it 3 > times) ( is that like tapping the heels of your shoes three > times?.....lol) well then how can NOTHING do SOMETHING? Harm or > otherwise?
the mere expectation of an outcome can bring on the outcome. that is what the placebo effect is all about, and why it is necessary to do double blind , placebo controlled testing for efficacy. What ever effect a homeopathic nostrum does must be occurring via a placebo effect, as it can't be due to the chemical which is no longer there. > > Joe > > bob allen wrote: >> Kirk McLoren wrote: >> >>> In many trials the placebo is as profound as the pharmaceutical and >>> with no adverse side effects/toxicology. >>> >> >> checkout the nocebo effect numerous examples of harm. >> >> >> >>> In many instances the act of doing something with an expectation >>> produces the desired effect. At least the homeopathic agent isnt toxic. >>> >> >> actually it can be. see above >> >> >>> More than can be said of many pharma nostrums. >>> >> >> Kirk >> >>> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: >>> >>> D. Mindock wrote: >>> > Bob, what you don't understand, you automatically do your >>> quackwatch >>> > routine. >>> > Asking you to try to go beyond your built-in wall of prejudices >>> is silly of >>> > me to >>> > ask of you. So I won't. Don't ask for references or "science". >>> >>> I think this comment clearly dilineates the differences in our >>> positions. I seek rational explanations and reproducable evidence and >>> you accept testimony. >>> >>> > You have >>> > your >>> > thoughts on things and that is the final word for you. Science >>> is only a >>> > method, a tool, >>> >>> agreeed >>> >>> > to get something believed to have a chance of being true to >>> > be >>> > verified. It doesn't explain the leap of intuition that creates the >>> > hypothesis in >>> > the first place. Homeopathy has been used successfully for quite >>> some time. >>> > >>> >>> no it hasn't. maybe a placeobo effect has worked but that is not >>> homeopathy. >>> >>> > That science cannot explain it does not mean it is not valid. >>> >>> so explain it to me. How does something which is not there, do >>> something? >>> >>> > Science >>> > is merely a method. >>> >>> agreed >>> >>> > Where did the hypothesis come from? Explain that. >>> > >>> >>> >>> who cares where it came from? if it is nonsense it is nonsense. >>> But if >>> you really want to know it came from a guy called Hahnemann, who >>> apparently had a very confused sense of cause and effect, and that >>> silliness has persisted to this day. So D if you really believe this >>> works , shouldn't the hypothesis be testable? Where is the data.? >>> >>> > Peace and light, D. Mindock >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "bob allen" >>> > To: >>> > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:53 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] >>> > Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials asEvidence) >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> Sorry but I have to jump in here with the mention of >>> homeopathy. This >>> >> is the silliest most counter-intuitive medical mubo-jumbo on the >>> >> planet. there is zero valid support for the idea that something >>> which >>> >> causes a symptom at high doses (what ever that means) is cured by >>> >> something at extremely low doses. And I mean extreme. >>> Substances are >>> >> diluted to 10 to the 120th power and more. At this >>> concentration there >>> >> is nothing left at all. A little critical thinking goes a long >>> way here. >>> >> >>> >> There may be some herbs out there for which there is credible >>> evidence >>> >> for efficacy, but as far as homeopathy goes- it is nonsense. >>> >> >>> >> Marylynn Schmidt wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Just my thoughts on the matter of bone (or anything) re-growth .. >>> >>> >>> >>> We are a whole and the whole must be treated so going to a >>> dentist for >>> >>> bone >>> >>> re-growth and/or gum tissue re-growth is as much of a >>> separation of self >>> >>> as >>> >>> seeing the heart specialist for heart problems, the >>> dermatologist for >>> >>> skin >>> >>> problems, etc >>> >>> >>> >>> Your mouth, gums, jaw bone, teeth are still a part of the >>> whole .. >>> >>> nothing >>> >>> is going to exist in isolation inside the human physical body. >>> >>> >>> >>> Do you know a good herbalist? I'm thinking something missing >>> .. but if >>> >>> you >>> >>> have some level of toxic substance as a core problem (don't we >>> all), then >>> >>> homeopathy could be the road. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mary Lynn >>> >>> Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister >>> >>> ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART >>> >>> TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior >>> Modification >>> >>> . >>> >>> Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy >>> >>> Practitioner >>> >>> . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . >>> Polarity . >>> >>> The Animal Connection Healing Modalities >>> >>> http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ >>> >>> http://allcreatureconnections.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: "D. Mindock" >>> >>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>>> To: >>> >>>> Subject: Re: >>> >>>> [Biofuel]Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials >>> >>>> asEvidence) >>> >>>> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:48:58 -0500 >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>> >>>> Yep, Linus Pauling was a true truth seeker, a beautiful human >>> being. >>> >>>> I've been doing a bit of research on periodontal disease. It >>> seems >>> >>>> that >>> >>>> there is alot going on that my dentist doesn't know about. He >>> just wants >>> >>>> to >>> >>>> pull teeth and put in partial plates. But there are dentists >>> who can >>> >>>> stop >>> >>>> the >>> >>>> disease and get bone and gums to regrow. So I will try to >>> hook up with >>> >>>> one >>> >>>> and see if he can do something to save a couple teeth. I've >>> talked with >>> >>>> a >>> >>>> friend >>> >>>> who has partials and he hates them. >>> >>>> I agree that flu shots are a bad idea. My wife doesn't get >>> them even >>> >>>> if they're >>> >>>> free. Her company brought in a couple nurses and offered all >>> employees >>> >>>> free >>> >>>> flu >>> >>>> shots. She passed. She says she feels uncomfortable for a few >>> days after >>> >>>> getting the shot >>> >>>> doesn't like the feeling. You just don't know what's in there >>> besides >>> >>>> the >>> >>>> crippled virus. >>> >>>> She and I work at keeping ourselves as healthy as possible >>> and don't >>> >>>> take >>> >>>> our health >>> >>>> for granted. >>> >>>> Yep, being ornery does help. The mind-body connection is very >>> real. >>> >>>> The mind controls >>> >>>> your health to a large degree. Being stubbornly optimistic or >>> happy is a >>> >>>> good way to keep the sick >>> >>>> bugs at bay. >>> >>>> Peace and joy, D. Mindock >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> From: M&K DuPree >>> >>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 6:09 PM >>> >>>> Subject: Re: >>> >>>> [Biofuel]Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials >>> >>>> asEvidence) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Hi D...good idea collecting the water thru the Pur first then >>> >>>> distilling. Muy excellente!!! >>> >>>> Linus Pauling...a true hero. >>> >>>> Man, sorry to hear about the periodontal stuff. But glad you >>> >>>> have >>> >>>> a remedy. >>> >>>> The colloidal silver I keep hearing about, but haven't tried. >>> >>>> Just >>> >>>> haven't felt the need. The wife and I don't do the flu shot >>> stuff, but >>> >>>> with whatever else we're doing, the years keep rolling by so >>> far without >>> >>>> any viral problems. Maybe being a bit ornery helps. >>> >>>> Mike >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> From: D. Mindock >>> >>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:41 AM >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] >>> >>>> Closed-Mindedness(WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials as >>> Evidence) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>> >>>> Yeah, my distiller has that drip thingy too. But I don't trust it >>> >>>> very much. It is just >>> >>>> too small and the water merely flows over a the carbon >>> granules. So >>> >>>> I >>> >>>> use a faucet >>> >>>> mounted carbon block filter. It is a Pur but Brita and some >>> others >>> >>>> make them too. >>> >>>> I collect that filtered water and then distill it. >>> >>>> I am familiar with Bronson. I think that is the company that >>> >>>> Linus >>> >>>> Pauling used as >>> >>>> his source for vitamin C. >>> >>>> Ok about the vit & min supplement. You got your bases covered. I >>> >>>> take the same >>> >>>> stuff, basically. Because I have periodontal disease, I also take >>> >>>> grapefruit seed extract, olive leaf extract, >>> >>>> and MSM. If I layoff taking these, I get a bloody toothbrush that >>> >>>> reminds me that I need >>> >>>> to stay with the program. Oh, and I do take colloidal silver too. >>> >>>> Peace & light, D. Mindock >>> >>>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> From: M&K DuPree >>> >>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:37 PM >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness >>> >>>> (WasHypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Hi D...regarding removing the gases, the distiller I use finishes >>> >>>> the process by dripping the water through a carbon filter. Is >>> this what >>> >>>> you're talking about? >>> >>>> Regarding the mineral replacement, I take a vitamin and >>> >>>> mineral >>> >>>> supplement from a company called Bronson. They call it "Insurance >>> >>>> Formula." It is a formulation based on a book written by a >>> Dr. Roger J. >>> >>>> Williams, The Wonderful World Within You (Bantam, 1977) >>> (How's that for >>> >>>> documentation, Bob?) It's been ages since I've read the book, >>> so can't >>> >>>> tell >>> >>>> you a damn thing about it. We buy direct from Bronson, not a >>> multilevel >>> >>>> deal or anything. Prices seem real good, so have never >>> considered >>> >>>> anything >>> >>>> else. >>> >>>> Mike DuPree >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> From: D. Mindock >>> >>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 1:58 AM >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was >>> >>>> HypnosisasAnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>> >>>> Yep, homogenization breaks the particles down to such a >>> >>>> small >>> >>>> size that they >>> >>>> can pass through the gut into the body cavity where they put a >>> >>>> burden on the immune >>> >>>> system. Pastuerization adds to the problem by destroying the >>> >>>> "life >>> >>>> force" of the >>> >>>> milk, the enzymes. Of course the milk has to be from a healthy >>> >>>> animal that is grass >>> >>>> fed. Soy is controversial in that it has hormonal effects. Also >>> >>>> it >>> >>>> is a GM crop with >>> >>>> all that that implies. But if you seem to be thriving on it, eh, >>> >>>> what the heck? >>> >>>> WRT distilled water, just take an extra mineral tablet each >>> >>>> day. >>> >>>> That's what I do. The thing with distillers is that they are >>> >>>> poor >>> >>>> wrt to removing >>> >>>> volatile gases, like benzene, etc. So I run the water through a >>> >>>> carbon filter like >>> >>>> that from Pur to get those gases out. Also there's the removal >>> >>>> of >>> >>>> lead, cadmium, >>> >>>> etc., then the distiller cleans up the residual. So the water is >>> >>>> pretty clean. It is strange >>> >>>> though that the Pur filter allows the flouride to pass through. >>> >>>> Who needs that crap? >>> >>>> Anyway, the distiller removes it. >>> >>>> Peace and light, D. Mindock >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> From: M&K DuPree >>> >>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 9:39 AM >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis >>> >>>> asAnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Hi D and Mike...isn't homogenized milk whipped up into >>> >>>> incredibly small particles that actually scar the lining of the >>> >>>> esophagus >>> >>>> and arteries, thereby, allowing cholesterol to more easily >>> coagulate >>> >>>> along >>> >>>> the linings? Whether or not it does, I say "soy milk." I know I >>> >>>> know...tastes terrible, to some. But I only use it on cereals >>> and a >>> >>>> couple >>> >>>> of desserts. Plenty of other stuff to be drinking, like....uh, >>> >>>> water....distilled of course...I know I know minerals etc >>> >>>> etc...hey...distilled....period...and don't bother me about >>> taste...if >>> >>>> you >>> >>>> can taste it, it ain't water you're tasting! Yeah, I'm closed >>> minded on >>> >>>> this one!! LOL Mike DuPree >>> >>>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> From: "D. Mindock" >>> >>>> To: >>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:56 AM >>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as >>> >>>> AnesthesiaWasTestimonials as Evidence) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> > Hi Mike, >>> >>>> > I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When >>> >>>> > milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful >>> >>>> > to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the >>> >>>> > Harvard study would actually be better off. >>> >>>> > Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and >>> >>>> organic. >>> >>>> > Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think >>> >>>> the >>> >>>> Hunzas >>> >>>> > drink their milk cultured, not straight up. >>> >>>> > Peace, D. Mindock >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>>> > From: "Mike Weaver" >>> >>>> > To: >>> >>>> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM >>> >>>> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as >>> >>>> Anesthesia >>> >>>> > WasTestimonials as Evidence) >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> >> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept. >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> Caveat: No proof other than what I've read over the years. >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people >>> >>>> suffer from are >>> >>>> >> in large part due to environment/lifestyle. In the third >>> >>>> world, >>> >>>> >> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of >>> >>>> food and >>> >>>> >> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we >>> >>>> suffer >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >from the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >> diseaeses of affluence: diabetis being the one that comes >>> >>>> to >>> >>>> mind, >>> >>>> >> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, >>> >>>> high blood >>> >>>> >> pressure, strokes and so on. Smoking is another factor. >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's >>> >>>> website: >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium >>> >>>> intake >>> >>>> doesn't >>> >>>> >> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. >>> >>>> For example, >>> >>>> >> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals >>> >>>> and >>> >>>> female >>> >>>> >> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) >>> >>>> per >>> >>>> week were >>> >>>> >> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were >>> >>>> those who >>> >>>> >> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> ) >>> >>>> >> Other studies have found similar results. >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a >>> >>>> disease" if >>> >>>> >> they don't eat the milk of another species. Dogs don't >>> >>>> need >>> >>>> cat milk. >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> bob allen wrote: >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >>>Howdy Terry, >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>Terry Dyck wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>HI Bob, >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart >>> >>>> disease, >>> >>>> >>>>Diabetes, >>> >>>> >>>>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world. >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is? are the >>> >>>> data age >>> >>>> >>>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included. >>> >>>> This is the >>> >>>> >>>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are >>> >>>> overly broad >>> >>>> >>>statements as fact, without little or no support. So give >>> >>>> me >>> >>>> >>>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss. How >>> >>>> about >>> >>>> age >>> >>>> >>>adjusted cancer rates? (age adjusting is necessary as >>> >>>> cancer >>> >>>> is >>> >>>> >>>essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely >>> >>>> you are to >>> >>>> >>>get cancer. >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> show me the data please. >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On the other hand >>> >>>> >>>>there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains >>> >>>> called >>> >>>> >>>>Hunzaland >>> >>>> >>>>that is an almost disease free area. >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>I have heard this canard before. I googled hunzaland and >>> >>>> about the only >>> >>>> >>>thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure" >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory >>> >>>> >>> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>or how about 160+ year olds >>> >>>> >>>http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>do really believe that? really, you don't think someone >>> >>>> could be less >>> >>>> >>>than forthright to make a point about a product the >>> >>>> promote? >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>or maybe it's the magnetized water >>> >>>> >>>http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> A pure organic food diet and almost no >>> >>>> >>>>pollution could be the reason for people having good >>> >>>> health. >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out >>> >>>> better >>> >>>> >>>documentation? >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>>-- >>> >>>> >>>>>Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob >>> >>>> >>>>>========================================================= >>> >>>> >>>>>The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest >>> >>>> exercises in >>> >>>> >>>>>moral philosophy; that is, >>> >>>> >>>>>the search for a superior moral justification for >>> >>>> selfishness JKG >>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> >>> > >>> > >>> >>>> >>> >> -- >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob >>> >> ------------------------------ >>> >> Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have >>> >> rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why >>> I have >>> >> rejected yours. -Author unknown >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Biofuel mailing list >>> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> > >>> >>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> > >>> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> > >>> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives >>> (50,000 messages): >>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob >>> ------------------------------ >>> Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have >>> rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have >>> rejected yours. -Author unknown >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuel mailing list >>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> >>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>> messages): >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Check out the New Yahoo! Mail >>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=43257/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta>- >>> >>> Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Biofuel mailing list >>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>> messages): >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > -- Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob ------------------------------ Actually we are all atheists. When you understand why you have rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have rejected yours. -Author unknown _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
