most gasoline powered cars run at 8+ any more, so a true flex fuel vehicle (similar to the aforementioned 2 1/2 ton hauler) could be made from existing parts, its just the fuel feed adjustments that would give you problems. a computer would have to be built and programmed with multiple feedback functions to accomodate any mixture of the usable fuels. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
> Just to add some food for thought here on this subject. > > If you build the engine for the fuel type you will get top performance. > this > performance may even exceed the performance of a similar engine designed > to > run on unleaded. Where all the problems come from is trying to run > anengine > designed for one fuel on another. In exalmple if I wanted to get top > performance out of propane fuel I would start with a 9-10 : 1 compression > ratio would create an engine withas good or better performance to one > designed at 7-8:1 designed for unleaded regular gasoline. > > Jim > > >>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars >>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:51:09 -0500 >> >>Hi Zeke, >> >> You wrote: "I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol >>denatured with either biodiesel or methanol." >> >> Two questions: >>1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas >>cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water). >> True or False??? >> >> If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) >> is >>that the mix has to be denatured ..... unleaded gasoline is not a good >>choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water >>conc must be only 1 or 2% ..... that's the tough part. >> >>2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol >>become a problem for engine parts? >> >> I appreciate your thoughts on this. >> Tom >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Zeke Yewdall >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) >> >> >> >> >> >> On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Jim, >> >> Add BD to denature ..... great idea. Still perfectly >>suitable for making ethyl esters. >> It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option >> to >>apply for different denaturants. >> >> The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for >>drinking. >> Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking? >> >> I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could >> drink >> a 2% solution? It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to >>be concerned about a little biodiesel in there? >> >> >> I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either >>biodiesel or methanol. >> >> Z >> >> If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol? ...... cut >> back >>98+% on methanol use. >> >> Uh-oh Now YOU have me thinking ..... dangerous .... am >>using a table saw again today. >> Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be >> suitable >>for "gas" cars? >> >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: JAMES PHELPS >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) >> >> >> Joe and Tom, >> Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline >>or ..... perhaps........ Biodiesel.... if the customer asks for it that >>way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use >>Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas..... Hmmmm >> >> Jim >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Thomas Kelly >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) >> >> >> Hi Joe, >> I didn't follow you when you wrote: >> "I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how to >>do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and >>I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high >>percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something >>like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol >>off >>the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. >>I >>haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl >>eventually as well." >> >> I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in >>castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed >>to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. >> >> This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil >>(or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to >>distill the alcohol out. >> >> What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a >>selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil >>floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to >>select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the >>top layer (vapor). >> Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from >> the >>castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial >>pressure >>would remain low -------> a continuous stream from the liquid through the >>castor oil to the vapor layer and out. >> Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between >>water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from "pushing" >>through the oil layer into the vapor layer? >> Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow >>water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems >>like >>this occur in living cells). >> >> Maybe I have it all wrong. >> You do have me thinking. The last time that happened .. >>"harmonic mixing" ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I >>do some grunt work ..... nothing dangerous. >> >> Best to you .... don't hesitate to correct me if I have >>it all wrong. >> >> Tom >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joe Street >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) >> >> >> Well Tom; >> Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we >>discussed. You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable >>pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. >>Put >> a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep the >>seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and >>fiberglass >>insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a boilover it would >>mean oil contaminating the seives......a risk I guess. >> I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I wonder how >> to >>do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and >>I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there was a high >>percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something >>like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol >>off >>the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. >>I >>haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl >>eventually as well. >> >> soon >> Joe >> >> Thomas Kelly wrote: >> >> Joe, >> I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol. >> I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer >> keg. >>I think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg >>..... problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it. >> >> I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between >>the still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for >>regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and >>would not damage the zeolite. >> >> How do we heat the trap? >> >> I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen >>projects .... some have stalled due to loss of interest .... I've got >>to rally. >> >> "Time to get back to it! We should work together. I >>really want to get off the meth....;)" >> >> Ditto >> Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as >> a >>wake-up call ... >> >> Good to hear from you >> Hope you're on the mend >> Tom >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Joe Street >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol >> >> >> Hi Tom; >> >> I couldn't agree more. I have always planned to attempt >>ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand >>the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production. Don't >>forget about the castor oil method for drying alcohol. I got some castor >>oil to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a >>while >>and haven't done much. Time to get back to it! We should work together. >>I really want to get off the meth....;) >> >> Joe >> >> Thomas Kelly wrote: >> >>Kurt, Thanks for the info. Doesn't sound like something I'll be >>doing at home. People get into producing their own BD for a variety of >>reasons >>including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a >>vise >>and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply >>could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link >>between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. >>I >>wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. >>Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol >>production. Thanks again, >> Tom----- Original Message ----- From: "Kurt Nolte" >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol >> >> >> It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from >>naturalgas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. >>Takes >>agood bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. >>-KurtThomas Kelly wrote: It appears to be difficult to make >>methanol from wood. Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from >>methane gas? Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol >>produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. >> >>Tom------------------------------------------------------------------------_______________________________________________ >>Biofuel mailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> 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