Gustl (and List)...ahh...another Zen calendar reader!! Love it...we keep ours
prominently displayed for daily reading.
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. It continues to occur to me
throughout this discussion that certain methods of inquiry into certain types
of phenomena are not necessarily useful into other types of phenomena. Of
course, this is also the basis for the argument..."my way or the highway."
Well, I know...I know...I have experience that to date "science" cannot explain
and consequently calls it "coincidence." LOL No difference between that
response and the one I get from the "fundamentalist" Christian (or to be more
inclusive, I should say "religionist" to include anyone who clings to something
written in a book rather than being open to their experience) when showing
him/her striations of rock that reveal millions of years of earth history and
not a world made in 6 days that I must take it on "faith." LOL Whatever...it
becomes obvious to me both sides are "mixing metaphors," so to speak, rather
than seeking common ground. Sad. What truth might otherwise be discovered or
revealed...and especially...lived? I want to suggest that controversy,
wherever we may find it, is oftentimes due to misconceptions of the truth and
it challenges all interested parties to set aside their definitions and
differences and seek common ground, as your mystics do, who "also recognize
that one does not conflict with the other if one has a right understanding."
Mike DuPree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "robert and benita rabello" <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Can these people be trusted with our planet?
> Hallo Robert,
>
> Sunday, 28 January, 2007, 14:18:41, you wrote:
>
> rabr> David Kramer wrote:
> ...snip...
>>>Pointing out that religious claims are not supported by any evidence
>>>is not ridicule, it's a statement of fact.
>>>
> rabr> Pointing out that atheism is just a substitution of one belief
> rabr> system for another is also a statement of fact. In terms of not
> rabr> being supported by evidence, you need to define what constitutes
> rabr> acceptable evidence and what should be rejected. If your a
> rabr> priori assumption is that God doesn't exist, you will
> rabr> immediately reject and ridicule anything that doesn't fit your
> rabr> preconceived concept of what constitutes valid evidence.
> ...snip...
>
> The problem is Robert, with fundamentalists of any stripe including
> atheists, is that they refuse to pick up the tools of understanding
> when they lay right in front of them. They would all rather cling
> tenaciously to their cherished BELIEFS rather than take the effort to
> use the readily available tools and acquire understanding. If you get
> Christian fundamentalists they dismiss everything with, "The bible
> says..." and their minds shut down. With the scientific athiests it
> is, "That is all subjective and there is no evidence..." and their
> minds shut down. Neither are willing to admit that their own puny
> understanding of science or religion is at best limited and faulty.
> There is more which we don't know than that which we do. They wish to
> apply the same rules to very different kinds of knowledge. It is worse
> than comparing apples and oranges. It is more like comparing apples
> and horse manure. I think that most of the problems which we
> encounter on this list revolve around cherished beliefs and stiff
> necks. One side will not allow that the other may have a valid point
> or that either may have it wrong somewhere.
>
> At the very heart of all religion is mysticism and when you get a room
> full of mystics of whatever belief system together what you get is not
> argument over picayune matters but rather agreement on fundamentals.
> This is because they have picked up the tools, done the experiments
> and reached a "scientific consensus of truth" which is demonstrable
> through their changed lives and actions. They recognize that there is
> a difference between sacred and profane (religious and
> scientific/worldly) knowledge and accord each its proper place in
> their lives. They also recognize that one does not conflict with the
> other if one has a right understanding.
>
> A couple of quotes:
>
> "A mystical experience is not any more unique than a modern experiment
> in physics. On the other hand, it is not less sophisticated
> either...The complexity and efficiency of the physicist's technical
> appartus is matched, if not surpassed, by that of the mystic's
> consciousness...A page from a journal of modern experimental physics
> will be as mysterious to the uninitiated as a Tibetan mandala. Both
> are records of inquiries into the nature of the universe." FRITJOF
> CAPRA
>
> "Consider a three-story building. The first floor is where we usually
> live. The second floor is the level of kensho, or enlightenment. The
> third floor is the domain to which Dogen summons us, and to reach it,
> obviously, you have to go by way of the second. But some people quit
> at the second floor, mistakenly believing they've arrived at the roof.
> And also let me remind you that above the roof lie boundless skies.
> Thus, the reality of our practice is that we must clarify ourselves
> endlessly." KO'UN YAMADA
>
> Religious or otherwise, fundamentalists seem to be stuck on the second
> floor or somewhere on the stairs between the first and second. The
> quest for knowledge, wisdom and understanding end and cherished
> beliefs take over.
>
> Happy Happy,
>
> Gustl
> --
> Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
> ********
> We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.
> ********
> The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope,
> soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones,
> without signposts.
> C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"
> ********
> Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen,
> daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht
> gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.
> ********
> Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
> hear the music.
> George Carlin
> ********
> The best portion of a good man's life -
> His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
> William Wordsworth
>
>
>
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>
>
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