Hei Gavin >hei keith, > >thanks for feedback + links, i was introducing our idea to the rest of >the group as well. > >i did read the links, which is why i ask for input about centrifuges >as none of those points are addressed in the video. if centrifuges >dont work well as you say, are they being dishonest? any guess about >their method + why they consider it good enough for their purposes?
I don't think he's being dishonest, just ignorant. It's still a widespread myth that you can chuck any kind of WVO into a diesel and "Hey, it runs great!" is all that matters. A major reason that people choose WVO rather than making biodiesel is that they're frightened of titration, and the news that they have to titrate it anyway isn't exactly welcome. So many of them go into denial about it, not many SVO sites will tell you you have to titrate the oil. But, sadly, it's true - there's no way of telling how much free fatty acid the oil contains unless you titrate it, and excess FFAs will certainly damage the fuel injection system. It's not just us who say so - see what the Fuel Injection Equipment Manufacturers (Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch) say about Free Fatty Acids: <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html> Again, a centrifuge will not remove free fatty acids. The other major reason people go for WVO rather than biodiesel is that they're frightened of all those terrible deadly poisonous chemicals. Actually they're not very deadly, and if you follow the directions at the Journey to Forever website Biodiesel section they're not dangerous either. >we would prefer to do as much as possible on site rather than prepare >it beforehand, in order to demonstrate the process + enable people to >copy the system Then you'll have to titrate the oil, or not only risk damaging your own diesel generator but advising other people to risk damaging theirs. >as for chemicals, perhaps they are common but not generally available >in such small quantities as we would need, I'm sure that's not so. Lab supply companies can supply small quantities, for instance to schools. >+ they would compete for >space in the ride with our sound gear. crossing certain international >borders we have in mind might become more problematic than it usually >is. not saying it's impossible tho. I doubt it would be a problem. >i disagree about the mikkonen factor, woodgas was very common across >this region in the middle of the last century, and it's an obvious >solution for some of our energy problems today. many others have >designed and built their own system, Not very many, it's rather rare. It's also not so simple, there's a lot of gungy stuff in woodgas that has to be removed first. >+ free wood is readily available. >he was only interested in selling plans that we would have to keep >confidential for 'personal use', and would not point us to people who >can reliably build it. we operate on open source basis Yes, indeed. >sori if i wasn't clear, we are not yet running a vehicle on the fuel, >we intend to generate electricity only. thanks for your patience + >explanations! You're welcome. All best Keith >best, >/g. > > > >> Hei Gavin >> >>> hei keith, >>> >>> our organization consists of musicians who want to take >>> responsibility >>> for our energy use - we are interested in any technology that can >>> power our live sound needs sustainably. >> >> Yes I know that, otherwise I wouldn't have ventured an opinion. >> >>> wvo biodiesel is a great idea >>> in general, but a logistical nightmare for our circumstances: >>> sourcing >>> + transporting chemicals across international borders, >> >> How so? What chemicals? >> >>> varied wvo >>> sources, >> >> What's the difficulty with that? I don't think anybody else has any >> difficulty. >> >>> and so on.. the complications of proper biodiesel are too >>> difficult compared to e.g. woodgas >> >> It's probably only in Finland that people would make that comparison, >> thanks to Vesa Mikkonen. >> >>> it appears we also have reason to use a centrifuge for the same > >> reasons you cited (mobility, collecting grease as we go, limited >>> settling time), >> >> Again, how so? Make it in advance in Helsinki and take it with you. >> I've done such things without any difficulty, so have many others. >> >>> if it is capable of generating electricity for live >>> sound gear without all the chemical inputs, >> >> Methanol and potassium hydroxide are extremely common chemicals, >> available everywhere, certainly in Helsinki. >> >>> glycerol byproduct + other >>> difficulties. >> >> What's the difficulty with the by-product? What other difficulties? >> >>> we don't intend to produce/sell premium biodiesel; we >>> just want to run our events on renewable energy instead of the oil/ >>> coal/nuclear grid standard in this part of the world. >> >> You're far from alone in that too. We have several times provided >> biodiesel to power the generators at big two-day summer music >> festivals here in Japan. No need for centrifuges. >> >>> keeping it as simple as practical! >> >> I disagree. Also you don't seem to have read what's at the links I >> gave you: >> >>>> Centrifuges >>>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#centr> >>>> >>>> Also: >>>> >>>> Filtering WVO >>>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltr> >>>> >>>> Filtering biodiesel >>>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltrbd> >> >> Centrifuges don't work well. And biodiesel is much better fuel than >> WVO anyway. What sort of WVO kit are you planning to fit to your >> vehicles? (Yes, it needs a kit, not cheap - unless you're willing to >> put the fuel system at risk.) Are you aware that you'll have to make >> sure that the WVO you collect is suitable for use as SVO fuel? That >> means titrating it: >> >> Fuel quality >> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#gnl >> >> Titration for SVO >> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#titsvo >> >> Titration for SVO is the same process as for making biodiesel, but >> the purpose is different. With biodiesel, it simply tells you how >> much catalyst to use, then you go ahead and do it. With SVO, however, >> it tells you whether the fuel is usable or not, and if it's not you >> have to find a source of better-quality oil. It's not less trouble, >> it's more trouble. If you're hoping that a centrifuge can solve the >> oil quality problem, forget it - the high levels of acids in >> poor-quality oils cannot be removed by a centrifuge. The only way to >> do that is to use a chemical process called transesterification, >> which is how you make biodiesel. >> >> Best >> >> Keith >> >> >>> /g. >>> >>> >>> On 12 May, 2010, at 21:29 , Keith Addison wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Gavin >>>> >>>>> anybody familiar with this centrifuge method? any insight >>>>> appreciated! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/video/2010/may/11/ethical-living-diy-big-society >>>>> >>>>> /g. >>>> >>>> He has a reason to use a centrifuge - he's mobile, he collects the >>>> oil as he travels, there's no time to let it settle. >>>> >>>> But I don't think you're on the move in the same way, are you? If >>>> not, you don't need a centrifuge. See: >>>> Centrifuges >>>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#centr> >>>> >>>> Also: >>>> >>>> Filtering WVO >>>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltr> >>>> >>>> Filtering biodiesel >>>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#fltrbd> >>>> >>>> K.I.S.S. >>>> >>>> Best >>>> > >>> Keith _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
