i guess our listserv software won't do forwarded material, so here is the  
text.
 
In a message dated 10/29/2007 12:28:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

ST  friends -- thought some of you might be interested in this thread from   
another listserv that occasionally gets active around research methods  on  
sustainable behaviors.  We just had the first meeting of  our  Cayuga 
Sustainability 
Council last Thursday, and I found it  interesting to see  that it is 
citizen-driven efforts in other areas  that are providing the most  momentum 
for  change.

Gay


Hi Margaret,

I think you're right about the quotes taking too  narrow a view of
influence and governance, and I like all of your comments  below. But the
solutions and opportunities to this problem are not intuitive  to me.
I'll briefly explain why and maybe people on this listserve can help  me.
I recently finished my PhD dissertation, titled THE POLITICS  OF
RELIABILITY: A SOCIOLOGICAL EXAMINATION OF THE STATE OF  VERMONT'S
RESPONSE TO PEAK OIL & CLIMATE CHANGE. 



Part of  the abstract reads:

The thesis that Vermont, the "greenest state in the  country," is not
acting reliably to help its citizens prepare for, mitigate  against, or
adapt to peak oil and climate change was largely borne out over  the
course of interviews with high ranking government employees, as well  as
nonprofit employees. Despite being the "greenest state in the  country,"
Vermont creates, in the words of one interviewee, "a dull tool,"  for
dealing with problems. Except for domain consensus that climate  change
is a problem, the majority of the characteristics of "high  reliability
organizations"-'big picture' communication and  coordination,
decentralized decision-making, extensive training,  aggressive
information seeking, and strong leadership-are not apparent in  Vermont's
response to peak oil and climate change. This dissertation explains  how
the environment of organizations (e.g., sunk costs),  organizational
characteristics (e.g., combinations of resources and schemas),  and the
cognitive practices of individuals within organizations (e.g.,  political
ideologies) undermines the characteristics of high  reliability
organizations.



This research can arguably lead to  the conclusion that Vermonters and
others should not expect much help  addressing peak oil and climate
change from their government. These problems  seem intractable in the
current context (e.g., the state needs new leadership  and resources).
Hence, it lends credence to the argument that community-based  efforts
(i.e., 'we're on our own') and engagement processes should be  explored
with greater urgency. However, my experiences in this state give me  the
impression that community efforts and nonprofit efforts (including  the
fact that I work for a nonprofit) can also be characterized  as
unreliable, given the scale of these problems- and neither have  anywhere
near the resources of the government. I guess I was hoping at the  end of
this dissertation process that I would have solutions or  recommendations
to boost the reliability of responses. But I'm struck with  the notion
that

A)    the federal government has abdicated  responsibility for dealing
with peak oil and climate change

B)   state governments are taking the lead, but if Vermont is  any
indication, state responses can be characterized by their  unreliability

C)    "sub-political" forces, including  nonprofits and citizen driven
efforts have a role to play, but each of these  types of organizations is
typically strapped for cash and limited in  effectiveness

D)    Individual efforts are poo-pooed as  ineffective and meaningless in
the big scheme of things



I  guess at a molecular level we're all just stocks and flows of energy
and  everything's a wash at that level. I'm probably exaggerating my
level of  frustration and depression at this point, but I'm  stumped.



-----Original Message-----
From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  On Behalf Of
Margaret Kilvington
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 6:00  PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [IntSci] Politics of  Engagement - quotes



Hi Margaret Kilvington here,



I  have been away for some time and now back in the office, I have been
making  my way steadily through this facinating conversation.  Thank you
all for  the wealth of interesting ideas.



I have not got through all yet,  and so may be responding out of turn -
but I would like to make some comments  on my own response when I read
the attached quotes.  How I read these is  that Daniel Fox and Lynn
Carson are both suggesting there should be no  processes that seek to
foster participation, dialogue and collective meaning  making
(fundamentals in deliberative democracy) unless they are also tied  to
mainstream governance - ie why meet when you have no influence?   



I question here whether this is taking too narrow a view of  influence
and governance.  Processes outside conventional  decision-making arena
are indeed hampered when it comes to direct influence  on matters firmly
cast in that context.  Yet, I would argue engagement  processes that are
designed to build the democratic capacity of communities  may give birth
to informal (but none-the-less influential) arrangements, and  may lead
to shifts in informal power.  Sure - there is nothing so likely  to
backfire than disingenuous acts of 'citizen engagement', I am sure  we
all have examples of this.  But I would argue that processes of  citizen
engagement within standard governance arrangements are more likely  where
capacity has been built within the community.  The case for  such
processes may be harder to establish, being outside standard remits  of
governing agencies, and yet paradoxically for the same reasons they  may
be easier to achieve.



kind  regards

Margaret   





Will Allen  25/10/2007

[Moderators note: I have been away for a few days so missed  that this
message - and these nice quotes -  did not get to all of you.  It was
originally posted on 9 October by Valerie Brown.]



These  quotes seem worth sharing - 



Professor Daniel M. Fox, President  Emeritus of the Milbank Memorial Fun
Citizen Engagement and the Politics of  Policy



"My thesis is that citizen engagement can help to devise  more effective
policy only if occurs in the context of the way politics is  normally
done in particular democratic countries. And a corollary:  citizen
engagement based on new forms of governance that ignore or seek  to
change the normal political context corrupts citizens, leads to  policy
that is sham or failure, and weakens the ability of  political
professionals to use the institutions they struggle to command to  make
purposive improvements in health."





Dr Lyn Carson,  Senior Lecturer in Applied Politics, United States
Studies  Centre



Trusting citizens as policy  reformers



"Dozens of case studies now exist which demonstrate  that citizens make
excellent deliberators in the area of policy making. These  deliberations
take the form of mini-publics or microcosms of the wider  community. I
will argue that public participation practitioners should  boycott the
facilitation of mini-publics unless the third ideal of  deliberative
democracy is realised. The three ideals are  representativeness,
deliberation and influence. The latter is crucial and  requires trust in
the abilities of typical citizens. Sadly, it is the ideal  which is least
likely ever to be realised. As a consequence, policy makers  are
seriously weakening the democratic fabric."

-------------- next  part --------------





Margaret Kilvington

Social  research for environmental management

Landcare Research

PO BOX  40

Lincoln, Canterbury, New Zealand

Tel:  0064 3 321 9999  

DDI: 0064 3 321 9714

FAX: 0064 3 321  9998

http://social.landcareresearch.co.nz

-------------- next part  --------------

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----------------------------------------------------
Gay  Nicholson, Ph.D. 

607-533-7312 (home office)
607-279-6618  (cell)

1 Maple Avenue
Lansing, NY  14882
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Sustainable Tompkins 
Program  Coordinator 
w_ww.sustainabletompkins.org_ (http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/) 

Southern Tier Energy$mart Communities
Regional  Coordinator
Cornell Cooperative Extension of Tompkins County
615 Willow  Ave., Ithaca, NY 14850
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