"...but give it up? We'll come to it if we have to, and that means if we can't afford it any more"
Giving up my car was the obvious choice in my situation, and I specifically chose to live this way so that I wouldn't need to own a car. It wasn't a tragic heart-breaking experience, it was something I was looking forward to. I can afford to own a car, but that doesn't mean that it is not an expensive system based on increasing convenience while causing harm to the environment while wasting our resources. I didn't have any extreme pressure to not own a car, it just seemed like the right thing to do. I can only wish that more people will find a way to get around without relying personal cars. -Andy On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Joel and Sarah Gagnon < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree with those who contend that the love affair with personal mobility > will be hard to break. I think it is safe to say that very few of us see it > as a positive. The more ethical among us will try to limit our use, but > give it up? We'll come to it if we have to, and that means if we can't > afford it any more. So the market will drive the shift, as it already is. > The market will also determine the feasibility of morphing the auto into > something more sustainable -- perhaps a much lighter and smaller vehicle > powered by wind energy stored in batteries. Without cheap oil to build it, > it is unlikely to be inexpensive, though. > > I noticed this morning a MoveOn petition in support of Al Gore's challenge > to derive 100% of our electricity from " cheap, clean, renewable energy > sources within 10 years". While I signed, I don't really believe it will be > cheap. Who are we kidding? > > Regardless of the cost, switching from fossil fuels is an ecological > imperative. We need to get on with it and deal with the inevitable > undesirable fallout in ways that do not impede the progress. The > counter-productive calls for rollbacks in fuel taxes and greater subsidies > for home heating fuels are perfect examples of maladaptive responses. > People will need help, but we should avoid propping up what we need to > replace. > > Joel > > At 09:20 AM 7/22/08 -0400, you wrote: > >Just because we are used to cars doesn't mean that replacing 300 million > >cars (a billion or so worldwide?) with smaller ones is going to make any > >real change. Ultimately we will need to find solutions to not rely on > >concentrated forms on energy whether that is oil, coal, or storage systems > >like batteries, capacitors or fuel cells. I have no idea what > transportation > >will look like in 100 years, but on the path we are on now, conservation > is > >still mostly an idea, not a practice, while resource use is increasing > also. > >-Andy > > > >On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 1:20 AM, Donna Mummery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > .--- Original Message ----- *From:* D & T > > > Lessware<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 22, 2008 2:29 PM > > > *Subject:* Re: [SustainableTompkins] Prius/electric Cars Could Be > Polluters > > > > > > SMALL CARS > > > > > > I write as a Chartered professional transport consultant who has > > > specialised > > > in Minimization in Engineering Science for 50 years . All the usual > > > university qualifications thank you and a five year engineering > > > apprenticeship before I was let loose in high tech Aviation . > > > > > > *1 ATTITUDE* The quest as suggested by Tony Del Plato for > converting > > > the masses to public transport is in my view a pipe dream -- humanity > has > > > learned to enjoy the independance of their powered private transport > over > > > three or four generations and it will take more than a four fold > increase > > > in fuel prices and several generations of hard education before one > will > > > dissuade the majority away from their Love Affair with their Car . > > > > > > * 2* *EDUCATION * Public transport , greater use of bikes , > rickshaws , > > > scooters ???"-- great great great -- but dislodge the over riding > fondness > > > with the private car ?-- no way . Get them to downsize their car -- big > > > challenge no doubt , hard work , big marketing , lots of cooercion but > , > > > with the right financial incentives, a very very big worldwide > potential > > > > > > *3* *THE BASIC APPLIED SCIENCE IS USUALLY IGNORED *. > > > > > > .BE SERIOUS Mass is the single biggest factor of all ,over riding > all > > > others , whether for combatting pollution, fuel consumption wastage , > raw > > > material wastage, production costs , recycling costs , new vehicle > > > retail cost, road space , parking space in cities , road maintenance > > > The World currently drives nearly 1 billion tonnes of steel > and > > > plastic around the globe every day --- what a criminal waste . Their > > > carbon > > > burn is a massive ONE FIFTH of all carbon burn worldwide , equivalent > to > > > all industry , greater than farming and commerce . That ain't > sustainable . > > > Only 0.3 % of our Carbon Burn fuel pushes us drivers around > , I > > > hear , -- the rest goes up in smoke for our Mechanically and > Structurally > > > Obesity sick Monsters called Cars > > > The Prius is a very commendable but far too modest start .Its > > > puchase price would cost me two or three years pension -- useless for > those > > > hardest hit by spiralling fuel costs . It is NOT SUTAINABLE to reduce > fuel > > > costs for cars which only those on high salaries can afford > > > My NEW vehicle will save at least most of current fuel cost > and > > > has a target retail price which even those like me on a State Pension > > > could > > > buy . It will be lighter than the Indian Tata Nano . > > > > > > Derek Lessware > > > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Date: Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:21 PM > > > Subject: Re: [SustainableTompkins] Prius/electric Cars Could Be > Polluters > > > To: Sustainable Tompkins County listserv < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > While it is defintely true that the mass of the vehicle contributes > > > greatly to the amount of energy required to move it, I sure hope the > > > statement "you will never get people out of their cars" is not true. If > it > > > is, even smaller cars will not solve the problem. There is a large > amount > > > of embodied energy in the production, distribution, maintenance, > repair, > > > and disposal of vehicles. If we just replace them with smaller ones > that > > > burn less gas, that will improve the efficiency some and reduce > > > consumption (although one can make a strong argument that efficiency > does > > > not in fact lead to demand destruction, it just expands the population > of > > > the demand), but it will not solve the problem. We need to provide > > > alternative transportation, convince people to walk more, and stop > > > producing so many cars. > > > > > > > What is needed is very small cars with little mass, as the first cars > > > > were. > > > > Small cars use a fraction of the fuel required by even a Prius. It > is > > > > car > > > > size and mass that determines the amount of fuel, and until you cut > the > > > > mass > > > > significantly, you will still get a polluting vehicle. You will > never > > > get > > > > people out of their cars but you can cut the size of them and get > very > > > > significant fuel savings, just as the first Model T did. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Tony Del Plato < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> I was taken aback by the this thought and wondered if anyone on the > TC > > > >> Sustainability list has a take on whether a Prius, if plugged in to > > > >> re-charge its battery, could indirectly pollute more than and is > less > > > >> efficient than a gasoline fueled car. The article below sounds > > > >> compelling > > > >> in > > > >> light of the coal industry trying to get into the transportation > market. > > > >> Tony Del Plato > > > >> > > > >> > > > > http://www.betterworldclub.com/articles/DC_Case_Against_Electric_Car.htm > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> > > > >> "Justice is what love looks like in public." > > > >> ~ Dr. Cornel West > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> > > > >> "Justice is what love looks like in public." > > > >> ~ Dr. Cornel West > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County > area, > > > >> please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > > > >> > > > >> RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > > > >> [email protected] > > > >> http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > > > >> free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County > area, > > > > please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > > > > > > > > RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > > > > free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, > > > please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > > > > > > RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > > > free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, > > > please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > > > > > > RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > > > free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, > >please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > > > >RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > >[email protected] > >http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > >free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > _______________________________________________ > For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, > please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ > > RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: > [email protected] > http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins > free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org > > > _______________________________________________ For more information about sustainability in the Tompkins County area, please visit: http://www.sustainabletompkins.org/ RSS, archives, subscription & listserv information for: [email protected] http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainabletompkins free hosting by http://www.mutualaid.org
