Dear Firefox Holger, if this is a svg newsgroup the clients' os and browser preferences should be none of your business. Eventually svg suffers from its insincere support? Actually svg suffers from multiple sicknesses? It suffered from questionable support driven by the occasion to prevent competition rather than for its justified value (sounds like adobe?)? It suffered from w3c whilst w3c has been leveraged to play with market interests? It suffers from abuse? It suffers from abuse by its straightest supporters, whilst propagated to serve collateral interests? Mixed up with open source misconceptions, spread ff campaigns and anti- trust brawling? Surprisingly it's not a European centric issue and public funded entities are rare svg supporters... Looking forward to your chinese svg revolution, Paul --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Holger Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > welkerpaul schrieb: > > > Holger, > > I do appreciate your efforts in sharing your knowledge and > > moderating this newsgroup very much. > > thanks :-) > > > Nevertheless your response to > > the very much vital questions concerning svgs future is not > > sufficient, nor acceptable in that manner. > > there is a lot of room for speculations, but i guess no one really knows > the future . > so we can discuss what should or could be, but we cant discuss what will be. > for my part, all i can do is use the technology i like most, and with > that create a customer demand. > > > Reckless of the danger beating a dead horse, these repeated > > questions are valid and need decent answers if you're looking for a > > future use of the technology. > > all it needs for these answers is a bit patience, only time will tell > what the future brings. > > > Adobe's attitude (`sorry, due to our > > policy/merger in progress we cannot announce future plans ') kills > > svg. > > thats exactly the big advantage of SVG, we are not depending on one > single vendor. > > > Please do realize that competing technologies (flash, flex, > > vml , xaml) do show off a well communicated roadmap. > > but > flash is not XML, > flex can only be used on the server, > VML is MS only, > and xaml is also only MS. > > that means thouse technologys cant be an alternative to SVG for me. > > > Admittedly, > > these competing technologies are not committee standards. The ironic > > thing about it is that some people answered Rick Bullota recently > > they'd rather like to see no broad adoption of svg than varying > > adoptions. > > sure it would be great to have 100% complience on all plattforms and > browsers, > but that most like will take some time, and in the meantime i guess > there is no other way than > accepting varying implemetations. this is what competition is about, > support the best implementation > in your eyes, and communicate what you are missing in other > implementations, > and probably other implementations will implement these features as > well, to stay competitive. > > > My goodness, svg is a cluttered and fragmented beast for > > any implementer by design! > > a highly sophisticated graphics api is never easy to implement i guess. > do you think its easier to implement 100% of xaml or flash ? > > > In the medium term svg would need native > > support by all the browser vendors to be relevant. > > why ? again i admit that 100% browser support would be fantastic, but i > dont see why > this would be nessecary. SVG is relevant, for example , on Linux > desktops, this has nothing to do with browsers. > so if what i heard about xaml is true it should be quite straight > forward to transform between MVG and SVG. > that said, you would be able to use all the nice SVG Icon themes out > there on windows ,too. > and all this without any browser support at all. > > > Svgt ought to be > > doable, but I'm afraid svgt is deplorable and not worth the effort > > in future. Might be a different situation concerning the mobile > > phones industries, yet they're volatile and face general problems > > like content accessibility aso.. > > im not to knowlagable in the mobile world, and since my mobile got > stolen some month ago, > i dont even have a mobile phone and im very happy without one ! > > > Back to your post, that might show through a little of svg's > > disease. Did you realize that svg will be something useless unless a > > majority of all web clients will be able to render svg content? > > no ! see above , SVG is not useless at all, as there are more > applications for SVG than webgraphics. > and remember that for browsers, there is object with the integrated > fallback behavior. > so you can use SVG today without excluding anyone from seeing your site. > but you could tell your visitors that the chart they are looking at will > be interactive > in a more standards complient browser (or if they download a plugin). > > > Does > > it help svg to spread firefox? > > yes, i believe so. > > > Even 50%+ firefox share would still > > be useless. > > not at all, 50% SVG support + plugin distribution is quite a lot in total. > > > Foul-mouthed `best viewed with browser x version y.z' > > statements again?? > > i really dont see why this would be bad ! i know that non techie people > dont want to know, > but thats one way to reastablish a competition among browser vendors again, > we as authors and users can only win from this competition. > > > Obviously I do not need a full blown w3c > > specification just to be able to watch my own content with my own > > favourite superior software configuration? > > no ? can you view xaml on linux, if thats your favorit OS ? can you view > Flash if you dont like Macromedia software ? > dont you see that SVG enables you to really be free to choose the > sofware/OS you like most ? > if im to switch to linux tomorrow, i can still keep and use most of my > SVGs , > a lot of other files will be lost. that is i dont want to recreate all > my content every time > my "favourite superior software configuration" changes.in the end thats > what standards are good for. > > > > > So, since svg cannot wait for an improbable 100% native browser > > support any time soon the stale plugin route seems the only way out. > > obviously for IE users this is true, for all the other browsers, i see a > lot of potential for their SVG implemetations. > btw. is there any non IE based browser not having/working on a native > implementation ? ( dont tell me lynx !) > > > Obviously adobe is the only entity having the power of enabling it's > > undercover svg-imageviewer for the internet browser through their > > readers update mechanism for the masses. Takes us back to the > > attitude thing > > there are approx. 10.000.000 downloads a month for firefox, i dont know > if Adobe ever hit these numbers. > dont forget that firefox is still a very new browser. > i believe that firefox will be the browser for the masses, > and the masses have more power than Adobe+MS together ! > imagine china chooses to broadly use linux, and with that use SVG > extensively, > do you think that it matters, in that circumstance, if Adobe produces an > SVG plugin for Windows or not ? > > > > > Why do I think these questions do need tidy answers now: it should > > help people to avoid wasting their time and money. Svg's competing > > technologies are currently shaping up better than svg. Even one of > > svg's predecessors, the meanwhile presumed dead vml has a bright > > future. I'd guess it won't be too long before openoffice supports > > vml. > > which would be great, interoperability is allways important. > > all the best > Holger > > > > > Best Regards > > Paul > > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Holger Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Francis > > > > > > > Which entity is going to support SVG? > > > > > > Me !!! and some other small companies like: > > > Mozilla.org, IBM, Novell, Sun ... are all supporting SVG on the > > > desktop... also the mobile industrie, including manufactures like > > > siemens, motorolla... and cariers like vodafon, > > > have clearly shown their support for SVG. > > > > > > > Adobe obviously has not followed > > > > through with its original commitment to develop an SVG viewer and > > > > development environment via their W3C relationship. > > > > > > Adobe+Macromedia will not drop SVG( see the newly created sites > > about > > > SVG at adobe ). > > > http://www.adobe.com/svg/main.html > > > > > > additionally we all know that the ASV6 viewer was meant as an > > SVG1.2 > > > implementation. therefor we will not see a new SVG viewer by Adobe > > > before SVG1.2 becomes recommendation. > > > so why do you wonder there is no new viewer ? > > > > > > > Who really cares > > > > why Adobe dropped the ball..?? > > > > > > did they ? really ? what makes you believe ? > > > > > > > Let's face reality: Unless a quality > > > > entity picks up the pieces, > > > > > > do you think MS is the only quality entity on this planet? > > > > > > following companies support SVG ( just to name a few ) > > > > > > Mozilla ,IBM ,Sun ,Novell , Siemens, Vodafon, Motorolla, SAP, > > HP,Kodak, > > > Sharp, KDDI, Agfa ,Nokia , Sony/Ericsson, Apple, Corel ... > > > > > > why do you think these are no quality entitys? > > > > > > > we're going to be wasting our collective > > > > time. > > > > > > maybe you are wasting your time in constantly asking this kind of > > > questions , and im wasting my time in trying to answer them, again > > and > > > again. if you think your are wasting your time with SVG, > > > just go away, use something else... do whatever you please. > > > > > > Holger > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > To unsubscribe send a message to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -or- > > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my > > membership" > > ---- > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Format > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? t=ms&k=Format&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c= 5&s=63&.sig=pwk9bsTG47SryYQd8oYMkg> > > Data > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? t=ms&k=Data&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5& s=63&.sig=Ybmv-NMr8B76MC8Re1fdyw> > > Svg > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? t=ms&k=Svg&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s =63&.sig=11VNwM2AJiL3y3m8bHlMbw> > > > > Computer internet > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? t=ms&k=Computer+internet&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+interne t&w5=W3c&c=5&s=63&.sig=0A5G5gyBvu8oMs16cYR8RA> > > W3c > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? t=ms&k=W3c&w1=Format&w2=Data&w3=Svg&w4=Computer+internet&w5=W3c&c=5&s =63&.sig=mcHOxevUaXqKuaXf6fpI7g> > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > YAHOO! 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