I believe one of the commenters corrected the author to the effect that HLS
is fMP4. In fact, I recall the author stating elsewhere that HDS and HLS
are both variants of fMP4. That article is good, but it's far from
definitive as the comments reveal. I offered it as strictly an entry point
into a quite murky subject.

The suggestion that the BBC is moving too precipitously certainly gives me
a strong sense of deja vue. We were both around to witness them all but
abandon HF 20 years ago so why is their latest spasmodic move surprising?
I'm not excusing such sudden decisions, only saying those decisions do bear
some reasoning. Like anything else involving humans, the 'Net is rife with
contradictions. I said the 'Net aspires to efficiency, and that's true
enough. Yet, it is also a place full of inertia. That's why we're still on
IPV4. There are entities like Google that become very frustrated with the
Internet's relatively glacial rate of innovation, and those organizations
occasionally set off metaphorical "tact nukes" to force the 'Net off its
"lard-butt." I'm positing that the BBC might be doing something similar,
even if it's acting from a faulty assumption.

As for Sonos, I understand that system is upgradeable. The catch is that
only the manufacturer can do it. Another example of "lard-buttius."

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Rob de Santos <rdesan...@afana.com> wrote:

> Scott, I would object to being characterized as not doing the research.
> I’ve spent dozens of hours on this in the past month alone. Time sink
> doesn’t begin to describe it.
>
>
>
> No one is suggesting that the BBC not move with the times. The issue here
> is that they are ahead of the market and hardware and they did so without
> warning. Had they added HLS as a transport protocol for AAC and given a
> “sunset” date for dropping the existing Shoutcast streams, my guess is
> there wouldn’t be near the upset. This is what they did with WMA and aside
> from the adverse impact to on demand listening (which was cutoff without
> warning), very few have complained. Likewise, most listeners won’t be upset
> to see MP3 go away but right now it is all the BBC is offering to those who
> cannot handle HLS. The BBC also claimed they had contacted hardware
> manufacturers last year however nearly every manufacturer that has
> commented has said the BBC did not contact them or they indicated Shoutcast
> (AAC) would continue and didn’t mention HLS.  The BBC test streams for this
> changeover were…. yes, Shoutcast not HLS.
>
>
>
> If I surveyed the 125 to150k streams out there, I am betting that 90+% are
> not HLS/HDS/DASH exclusively. I see the stats on adoption and there is no
> doubt that is the future but it isn’t the present. We can argue market all
> we want but the BBC is a public broadcaster not a private company and I’m
> sure all of those blind listeners don’t care a whit about the technical
> details. All they know is that their devices no longer work. As someone who
> spent $1,000 on a Sonos system that no longer plays the BBC if they care
> about the new protocols. We both know the answer.
>
>
>
> Quoting the web site you mentioned:  “Adobe, Microsoft and Transitions
> wrote an interesting white paper highlighting the advantages of fMP4
> (HDS) over MPEG2-TS (HLS).”
>
> fMP4 is HDS not HLS according to overdigital.com . So far the BBC has
> implemented HLS. It plans to do HDS soon and DASH at some unannounced date
> in the next year or so.  As of now, you must have a license to include HLS
> in hardware products. Apple has said this.  Again, I’m fine with that if
> that was not at the expense of most of their audience and it was a
> well-planned transition. This is anything but that.
>
>
>
> I’ve read that Android had HLS in its design since 3.0. Reports from the
> field suggest it is more complicated than that so what individual cellular
> manufacturers did was obviously something else. The only thing I’ve been
> able to confirm definitely is that 99+% of current generation (4.4 and 5.0)
> phones work with HLS.
>
>
>
> --
> -Rob de Santos
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Royall [mailto:roy...@conchbbs.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2015 3:51 PM
> *To:* Rob de Santos
> *Subject:* Re: [Swprograms] Links to info on BBC streaming changes and
> effort to Restore Internet feeds
>
>
>
> Oh boy, this topic has splendid potential for turning into an excellent
> time-sink, and I really don't have that sort of time to spare. It is
> apparent that people aren't doing the prerequisite research necessary to
> understand what is going on, and why. If BBC really is trying to run both
> HDS and HLS, they are effectively attempting to ride two competing horses
> of future content delivery, and they should be applauded for continuing to
> staying ahead of the trailing wave. A general reminder: The Internet
> doesn't need 50 years to innovate, unlike arguably "Shortwave." Driven by
> profit, the competitive atmosphere of the 'Net forces greater and greater
> efficiency, and MP3 feeds simply aren't.
>
>
>
> What about the various appliances for playing MP3 audio from the 'Net?
> Well, I have a counter-question to offer. Why do people keep buying
> software-based devices from manufacturers who cannot or will not easily
> update those things? This laptop gets software updates with almost alarming
> frequency. Same goes for your smartphone or whatever you're reading this
> email on. I guess you were unaware that HLS has been in Android since
> version 3.0. (Sorry, it was news to me also.) The bottom line is that we
> are in a *soft*world these days where the media transport can, and does,
> change. You have no worries as long as your content consumption device is
> equally agile.
>
>
>
> By the way, HLS is just an implementation of fMP4, which is as open as a
> Texas sky. That means you don't have to be Apple to consume the Kool-Aid.
> :)
>
>
>
> You might start your research with:
> http://www.overdigital.com/2011/12/27/hls-vs-hds-what-is-the-difference-and-why-you-should-care/
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Rob de Santos <rdesan...@afana.com>
> wrote:
>
> As noted in other posts, TuneIn works, mostly. They are feeding the 128k
> MP3 feeds the BBC is providing for its stations as a *temporary *measure.
> These streams have proven to be unreliable and subject to buffering but
> more importantly, will go away in a *year* (date not specified by BBC).
> Since TuneIn cannot yet handle the permanent streams (HLS or HDS transport
> protocol) it is at risk. My guess would be that TuneIn will fix it on
> platforms where it can, such as later versions of Android, but not
> elsewhere.
>
>
>
> Further, TuneIn is not a substitute for the native streaming capability on
> many platforms dependent on Reciva, vTuner, Frontier, Sonos, etc. either
> because it is not available or is a plug-in/add-on feature. It’s great
> where it works and I use it but there are many, many streams it does not
> offer. Until TuneIn can provide higher quality streams it is no better than
> the 128k streams that Reciva or vTuner have plugged in, too. OK for talk,
> lousy for music, and temporary.
>
>
>
> Remember what the BBC has told listeners as it pulled shortwave service:
> you don’t need shortwave you have the internet. *Not any longer*.
>
>
>
> --
> -Rob de Santos
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Royall [mailto:roy...@conchbbs.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, March 13, 2015 1:37 AM
> *To:* Rob de Santos; Shortwave programming discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [Swprograms] Links to info on BBC streaming changes and
> effort to Restore Internet feeds
>
>
>
> Actually, I am rather puzzled by all this angst over the availability of
> BBC streams. Am I the only one who knows about tunein.com? They have the
> whole enchilada, some locals, National, and World Service.
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
Swprograms mailing list
Swprograms@hard-core-dx.com
http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/swprograms

To unsubscribe:  Send an E-mail to  
swprograms-requ...@hard-core-dx.com?subject=unsubscribe, or visit the URL shown 
above.

Reply via email to