Cruz mostly African ancestry?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Andre Sammartino
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 8:32 PM
> To: P.F.Talbot
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Entine's flaws
>
>
> but the statement that "92 of the top 100 times are held by
> those of mostly
> African ancestry" is still wrong... it can only be 82... it's
> just poor
> data collection undermining what are substantive claims...
>
> for what it's worth my view here is that the discussion is about
> probabilities...
>
> Entine is probably correct in that the probability of a given
> East African
> being capable of world class middle to long-distance
> performances is higher
> than a non-East African, and likewise that the probability of a West
> African being capable of world class sprint performances is
> higher than a
> non-West African... but it's only probabilities... the beauty of the
> stochastic nature of the process is that there are always
> "freaks" who mess
> with the numbers... so maybe it becomes an issue of "freak" frequency
> (almost went for the pun there)... and then there's hard
> work, training,
> opportunity, environment, discrimination, resources etc...
>
> uh-oh, we're back on this train again!
>
> why do we get sucked in?
>
> At 10:15 AM 8/15/2001, P.F.Talbot wrote:
> >So this looks like only 7 non-Africans have produced times
> in the top
> >100 all time, right?
> >
> >I'd put Juantorena on the list though (maybe that was his 8th).
> >
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Andre Sammartino wrote:
> >
> > > Jon,
> > >
> > > I don't understand where you are getting these numbers
> from... each
> > > time you reappear on this list to boost book sales you undermine
> > > your credentials substanitally by citing WRONG numbers. Where is
> > > the 800m evidence you cite?
> > >
> > > my check of Peter Larsson's top 100 performances all-time
> produces
> > > this list of non-"africans"
> > >
> > > 3 1.41,73 Sebastian Coe
> > > 11 1.42,33 Sebastian Coe
> > > 18 1.42,58 Vebjørn Rodal
> > > 39 1.42,88 Steve Cram
> > > 40 1.42,90 André Bucher
> > > 42 1.42,92 André Bucher
> > > 43 1.42,95 Vebjørn Rodal
> > > 45 1.42,97 Peter Elliott
> > > 54 1.43,07 Sebastian Coe
> > > 60 1.43,12 André Bucher
> > > 64 1.43,17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy
> > > 67 1.43,19 Steve Cram
> > > 72 1.43,22 Steve Cram
> > > 75 1.43,25 Vebjørn Rodal
> > > 84 1.43,31 André Bucher
> > > 91 1.43,34 André Bucher
> > > 98 1.43,38 Sebastian Coe
> > > 98 1.43,38 Rich Kenah
> > > http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/mtrack/m_800ok.htm
> > >
> > > That's 18, not 8!
> > >
> > > And if you in fact meant all time performers, then the top 100 at
> > > Hanserik Pettersson's site includes these lot (i may have
> a couple
> > > wrong here through not knowing who/"what" they are/were (ugly
> > > terminology, but we are playing this game)):
> > >
> > > 2 1.41.73 Sebastian Coe
> > > 5 1.42.58 Vebjörn Rodal
> > > 12 1.42.88 Steve Cram
> > > 13 1.42.90 André Bucher
> > > 14 1.42.97 Peter Elliott
> > > 22 1.43.17 Yuriy Borzakovskiy
> > > 31 1.43.38 Richard Kenah
> > > 37 1.43.56 Rob Druppers
> > > 45 1.43.65 Willi Wülbeck
> > > 49 1.43.74 Andrea Longo
> > > 52 1.43.7h Marcello Fiasconaro
> > > 53 1.43.84 Olaf Beyer
> > > 54 1.43.84 Martin Steele
> > > 55 1.43.86 Ivo Van Damme
> > > 57 1.43.88 Donato Sabia
> > > 58 1.43.88 Tom McKean
> > > 59 1.43.90 Einars Tupuritis
> > > 62 1.43.91 Johan Botha
> > > 63 1.43.92 John Marshall
> > > 65 1.43.92 Andrea Benvenuti
> > > 67 1.43.95 Philippe Collard
> > > 68 1.43.95 Giuseppe D'Urso
> > > 71 1.43.98 David Sharpe
> > > 72 1.43.98 Bram Som
> > > 73 1.43.9h José Marajo
> > > 75 1.44.01 Marko Koers
> > > 76 1.44.03 Peter Braun
> > > 79 1.44.07 Lucijano Susanj
> > > 80 1.44.09 Steve Ovett
> > > 81 1.44.10 Vladimir Graudyn
> > > 82 1.44.10 Ari Suhonen
> > > 84 1.44.14 Lee Jin-il
> > > 88 1.44.22 Nils Schumann
> > > 92 1.44.25 Vasiliy Matveyev
> > > 94 1.44.38 Ryszard Ostrowski
> > > 96 1.44.3h+ Peter George Snell
> > > 97 1.44.3hy-.6 Jim Ryun
> > > 98 1.44.3h Dave Wottle
> > > http://w1.196.telia.com/~u19603668/atb-m04.htm
> > >
> > > That's 38...
> > >
> > > Please explain your sources...
> > >
> > >
> > > Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 17:02:57 -0700
> > > From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >
> > > ...
> > > I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a
> > > while
> > back
> > > about "why Brits" will are doing so lousy. The FACT
> is...and you can
> > > check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you
> and others
> > > have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of "US, UK
> > > and Northern European stock" that were setting the world on fire
> > > years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great
> > > runners such as Cram and Coe
> > competing
> > > in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not
> compete,
> > > particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South
> America.
> > > Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes
> to the top.
> > > Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those
> so-called
> > > "great"
> > times of
> > > years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population
> numbers AND
> > overall.
> > > In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times
> are held by
> > > those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner.
> Of course.
> > > And we will always have great runners. But he was no
> where near the
> > > consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. ...
> > >
> > >
> >
> >*******************************
> >Paul Talbot
> >Department of Geography/
> >Institute of Behavioral Science
> >University of Colorado, Boulder
> >Boulder CO 80309-0260
> >(303) 492-3248
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
