** This is the quasi-official and semi-temporary T13 email list server. ** Document Number: T13/e01132r0 Date: 23 Aug 2001 Reply to: Pete McLean To: Membership of T13 From: Mark Evans, Secretary of T13, and Pete McLean, Chair of T13 Subject: Minutes of 30th T13 Working Group and Plenary Meetings at Longmont, CO August 21 - August 23, 2001 Agenda 1 Opening remarks 3 2 Approval of agenda 3 3 Membership and attendance 3 3.1 Membership 3 3.2 Fees 3 3.3 Attendance 4 4 Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting (e0124r0) 4 5 Document distribution 4 6 Review of previous action items 5 7 Old business 5 7.1 ATA/ATAPI-6 project 1410-D 5 7.1.1 Review of issues and action items from the editorial review, July 24-26, 2001 5 7.1.2 Change bar review of revision 2 7 7.1.3 Editorial review of Annex C 8 7.1.4 Setting of BSY issue 8 7.1.5 Audio/Visual Model (d99135r6) [Colegrove] 8 7.1.6 Single device configurations ( ) [McFerrin] 8 7.1.7 Schedule Review 9 7.2 EDD - 2 project 1484-D (d1484r0) [Stevens] 9 7.2.1 EDD raid option ROM RAID proposal (e01125r0) [Stevens] 9 7.2.2 SCSI CDBs (e01127r0) [Stevens] 9 7.2.3 Packet sending services for EDD (e00143r1) [Stevens] 10 7.2.4 Draft review (d1484r0) [Stevens] 10 7.3 ATA/ATAPI Host Adapters project 1510-D 10 7.3.1 Draft review (d1510r0) [Goodfellow] 10 7.3.2 ADMA presentation (e01134r0) [Stevens] 10 7.4 Proposal for command integrity checking (e00160r0) [McLean] 10 7.5 Consolidated ATAPI PACKET command set (e00150r0) [Goodfellow] 10 7.6 Extended cable lengths (e00151r1) [Goodfellow] 10 7.7 Larger sector size ( ) [Colegrove] 10 7.8 Errata for ATA/ATAPI-5 (e01122r0) [McLean] 10 7.9 ATA/ATAPI-7 project 10 7.9.1 Project proposal (e01116r1) [McLean] 11 7.10 INTRQ assertion, negation, release, pull-up (e01119r0) [Barras] 11 7.11 FLUSH CACHE command modification proposal (e01126r0) [Noblitt] 11 7.11.1 Queuing enhancements (e01128r0) [Goodfellow] 11 7.12 T13 Reflector, FTP, and Web Site Setup 11 7.13 Open issues list 11 8 New Business 11 9 Liaison Reports 12 9.1 T10 12 9.2 SFF 12 9.3 IDEMA 12 10 Call for Patents 12 10.1 Convolve 12 11 Review of Action Items 12 12 Meeting Schedule 13 12.1 Authorization of ad hoc working groups 13 12.2 Long term meeting schedule 13 13 Adjournment 13 Results of the Meeting 1. Opening remarks Pete McLean, the T13 Chairman, called the meeting to order at 9:15 A.M. on Tuesday, August 21, 2001. Pete thanked Maxtor Corporation for hosting the meeting. As is customary, the people in attendance introduced themselves, and a copy of the attendance list was circulated. Copies of the draft agenda were made available to those in attendance. The Chairman briefly reviewed the meeting rules: T13 is a Technical Committee of NCITS and operates under NCITS rules. Anyone with interest in the work of the committee is free to attend and take part in discussions. However, motions and votes are limited to member organizations, one vote per member organization. In addition, the committee complies with NCITS antitrust guidelines. As a result discussions about unannounced products, prices, volumes, vendor relations, etc., are prohibited. The Chairman noted that a set of Policies and Procedures for NCITS are available at the www.ncits.org site under the standing documents category as SD-2. The committee is operating under these revised policies and procedures augmented by the T13 procedures at the T13 web site www.t13.org. 2. Approval of agenda The agenda as reflected in these minutes was approved unanimously. 3. Membership and attendance The Chairman reviewed the rules for membership and attendance: 1) Membership An individual from an organization new to T13 must attend at least one T13 plenary meeting as an Advisory Member before requesting voting membership. After that meeting, the representative must request membership from the T13 chair stating expertise and material interest in the scope of the committee and pay required fees to NCITS. Voting privileges begin upon receipt by the NCITS Secretariat of applicable fees for the membership year. 2) Fees Current NCITS memberships fees for Observer, Principal, or additional Alternate are 800.00 USD (the First Alternate is free with a Principal membership). A T13 subscription is available to Principal, Alternate, or Observer Members at a fee of 800.00 USD. Mailings of committee documents are available to any interested party after each plenary meeting. The cost for mailings for one year is 300.00 USD for mailing in the USA and for 400.00 USD for mailing to a location outside of the USA. Persons with questions or requests regarding membership fees and/or subscriptions for mailings should contact Monica Vago, Manager, ITI Standards Operations, at 202-626-5739, send a fax to her at 202-638-4922, or contact her by email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 3) Attendance In addition to payment of fees, there are also minimum attendance requirements to maintain voting membership status on T13. A representative from a member organization must attend two of every three meetings and vote on at least every other letter ballot. If a member organization fails to have a representative in attendance at two of the last three T13 meetings or vote on every other letter ballot, they are warned that failing to attend the next T13 meeting or to vote on the next letter ballot will result in their membership being terminated. Attendance at a working group meeting does not affect membership status in T13. The following members were in jeopardy due to lack of attendance: CMD Technology Dell Computer Marvell Microsoft The following members were terminated due to lack of attendance: CMD Technology Dell Computer Marvell The T13 membership during the meeting was 21 organizations (changed from 24 organizations at the last meeting). No company requested new membership following the adjournment of the meeting. T13 membership following the meeting was 21 members. The following individuals were in attendance: Phil Gardner Absolute Software Mark Evans Maxtor Ron Roberts Adaptec Pete McLean Maxtor Larry Barras Apple Nita Pan Microsoft Hale Landis Consultant Mary Morgan Morgan Link Sumit Puri Fujitsu Tony Goodfellow Pacific Digital Andrew Vuong Hitachi Curtis Stevens Pacific Digital Dan Colegrove IBM Bill McFerrin Philips Michael Eschmann Intel Ron Salmon Phoenix Tim Bradshaw Iomega Marc Noblitt Seagate Andre Hedrick Linux ATA Development Tasuku Kasebayashi Toshiba Tim Thompson LSI Logic Darrin Bulik Western Digital 4. Approval of the minutes from the previous T13 plenary meeting (e0124r0) The minutes from the previous meeting, e01124r0, were approved unanimously. 5. Document distribution The following documents were distributed: Agenda and document directory ATA/ATAPI-6 revision 2 e01116r0 Project proposal for ATA/ATAPI-7 d99135r6 A/V Model and Definitions Annex 1510dr0a ATA Host Adapter Standards In addition diskettes were passed around with soft copies of the above documents. 6. Review of previous action items 1. The Chair took an action to forward e01122r1, Errata for A/ATAPI-5, to NCITS for further processing - completed (see 7.8) 2. The Chair recommended that all members should check with their respective legal departments about any issues that they would have regarding Automatic Acoustic Management relative to ATA/ATAPI-6 (see 10.1). 7. Old business 1) ATA/ATAPI-6 project 1410-D i. Review of issues and action items from the editorial review, July 24-26, 2001 During the review of ATA/ATAPI-6 revision 1e the following issues were identified. 1. 6.6.2.3 Ultra DMA burst termination phase rules, item 2): Should DEVICE RESET be added as something that would allow a host to abort an Ultra DMA transfer? The consensus of the group was that yes, it should be added. The editor agreed to make the necessary changes to the document to reflect this. 2. 6.15.2 BIOS locking SET MAX, in the description for state SM2:Set_Max_Locked: transition SM2:SM3, "T13 intends to remove this transition in ATA/ATAPI-6." What does this mean? The consensus of the group was to remove the statement. The editor agreed to do this. 3. 6.23.1 Streaming commands: The last sentence in the seventh paragraphs reads, "The SET FEATURES command to enable/disable caching may not affect caching for streaming commands." What should happen to the caching function of Streaming when non-Streaming caching is disabled or enabled? May it have an effect or shall it have no effect? The consensus of the group was that the SET FEATURES subcommand shall have no affect on caching for Stream commands. A host should use the FLUSH bit for those commands to force device access. The editor agreed to make the necessary changes to the document to reflect this. 4. 7.8.3 Device Control register, Access restrictions: Curtis Stevens proposed that access to the Device Control register when DMACK- is asserted should be allowed, though the words in the standard prohibit this access. The consensus of the group was that there would be no change. Access to any register other than the Data Port shall not be allowed when DMACK- is asserted. 5. 8.17.18 IDENTIFY PACKET DEVICE, Word 49: Capabilities, bit 9: Is defining LBA translation supported for ATAPI necessary? Is this translation ever used for this device type? The consensus of the group was to make the bit obsolete. The editor agreed to do this. 6. Is the Host Protected Area feature set ever used for ATAPI devices? Shouldn't this function be done via SCSI methods for these devices? If so, shouldn't use of this feature set be prohibited for use by these devices? The consensus of the group was that this feature set should remain optional for use by devices implementing the Packet Command feature set. 7. There was strong feeling at the working group for making the C/D and I/O bits obsolete for READ and WRITE DMA QUEUED and QUEUED EXT. Curtis Stevens moved and Dan Colegrove seconded that these bits should be made obsolete in these commands. The vote was 6:0:4 in favor of making the bits obsolete. The editor agreed to make the necessary changes to the document to reflect this. 8. The entries in the Delayed LBA Log may be affected by changes in the Streaming Performance Parameters Log or other external environmental factors. Should this be more clearly defined? If so, how? It was agreed that something like the following will be added after the first sentence in the second paragraph in 8.30.8.6 "...and may also affect the Delayed LBA log. The host should check the Streaming Performance Log and the Delayed LBA Log after one of these events." The editor agreed to make the necessary changes to reflect this. 9. Can sectors be removed from the log if found later to be good based on the above exceptions? Yes. See item 8. 10. What is the response if RC is set and the transfer time limit expires, and what happens if RC is not set and the time limit expires. Should all of the data be transferred? How should the error be reported? The consensus was that if a device can not transfer all of the data within the command completion time limit when RC is set to one, the device shall terminate the transfer and set SE to one. Also to be added is the concept that the data transferred may be unspecified if an error occurs during the transfer. The editor agreed to make the necessary changes to reflect this. 11. How should errors be reported for Stream commands in general? When should the task file be used for error location reporting? It was agreed that when RC or WC is set to one SE shall be set to one to indicate an error, and the task file shall reflect the location of the error, and the error information shall be in the log; when RC is cleared to zero ERR shall be set to one to indicate an error and the task file shall reflect the location of the error; DWE shall be set to one if an error occurs while writing data for a WRITE STREAM command for which status has already been returned; and, if DWE is set to one, the error data is only in the log. The editor agreed to make the necessary changes to clarify this behavior. 12. How should the SET FEATURES subcommand for Enable/disable reverting to defaults affect settings, e.g., Ultra DMA modes? It was agreed that a sentence would be added in clause 6.6.1 to clarify that some devices may revert to Multiword DMA after receiving a soft reset when a SET FEATURES subcommand for Enable reverting to defaults has been completed. The editor agreed to make the necessary changes to clarify this behavior. 13. Didn't we make SMART SAVE ATTRIBUTE VALUES obsolete? The consensus of the group is that the parts of the document that do not currently specify this as obsolete shall be changed to specify this as obsolete. The editor will make it so. 14. When should DWE be cleared after being set? The consensus or the group is that it gets cleared like any other bit in the Status register. 15. Which errors are reported for DWE? It is extremely difficult (and a new requirement not placed on I/T data type commands) for devices to maintain context for all dirty cache content. Mark Evans recommended that the Streaming annex include an explanation that one of the effects on performance of interspersing Stream commands and non-streaming commands is that a device may flush its cache if it contains one type of data and receives the other type of command. For example, if a device has cached data from several Stream commands and receives a non-stream command, the device may write all cached Stream data to the media before completing the non-stream command. Conversely, if a device has cached data from several non-stream commands and receives a Stream command, the device may write all cached non-stream data to the media before completing the Stream command. This allows a device to not have to maintain context for each group of data in cache. The editor of the annex agreed to include this. 16. Which errors go into the Write Stream Log? (see above item) It was agreed that the intent is that the only Stream errors that are logged are those errors that occur when SE is set to one (i.e., RC or WC is set to one). Otherwise, if an error occurs during a Stream operation, ERR is set to one and the information is reported in the task file as normal. During the review of ATA/ATAPI-6 revision 1e the following issues were identified. 1. Folks should think about the value reported for READ and WRITE MULTIPLE commands: what really should be the default value? Is it in word 47 or 59 in IDENTIFY DEVICE data? It was agreed that the only statement that will be in the document is that word 59 defines the multiple value. 2. What is the value in word 59, bits (7:0) in IDENTIFY DEVICE data (i.e., the current multiple value) at power-up or after a hardware reset, if bit 8 in word 59 is set to one? See 1. 3. Mark Evans is to come up with a clear definition for the self-test failure checkpoint byte (see 8.30.8.5.3 and 8.55.6.8.4.2). Mark Evans recommended that the following be the new definition, "The content of the Self-test failure checkpoint byte may contain additional information about the specific self-test that failed." This was accepted by the group and the editor agreed to include this in the document. ii. Change bar review of revision 2 Pete McLean reviewed the change bars in the new revision of the document that reflected differences between the current and previous revisions of the draft standard resulting from the working group meeting in July. During the review several modifications and corrections were recommended which the editor agreed to include in the next revision of the draft standard. Change bars will identify these changes. iii. Editorial review of Annex C Review was completed through C.3. The editor agreed to make the changes recommended by the working group. Mark Evans agreed to submit a proposal with editing suggestions for C.4 through C.6. iv. Setting of BSY issue The editor agreed to change a sentence in 7.15.6.1 in the draft to, "BSY shall be set to one only when one of the following has occurred:" v. Audio/Visual Model (d99135r6) [Colegrove] Ron Roberts moved and Andre Hedrik seconded that this annex not be included in ATA/ATAPI-6. Mark Evans requested a friendly amendment to remove all elements of the Streaming command set from ATA/ATAPI-6. This was accepted by Ron and Andre. Marc Noblitt requested a friendly amendment to include the Streaming command set in a future ATA/ATAPI standard. This was accepted by Ron and Andre. The consolidate motion is: The Streaming model annex shall not be included in ATA/ATAPI-6, all elements of the Streaming command set shall be removed from ATA/ATAPI-6, and the Streaming command set shall be included in the next standard version of an ATA/ATAPI standard. The motion failed 8:2:3 (to have passed, this motion would have required 50% of the membership and two-thirds of those voting to have voted in favor). vi. Single device configurations ( ) [McFerrin] Bill reported that he would like to see that both devices implementing the Packet command feature set (i.e., ATAPI devices) and those not implementing the Packet command feature set (i.e., ATA devices) should behave the same. An example of where these devices behave differently is the behavior of the two device types in single device configurations for shadowing not-present devices. Larry Barras explained that the behavior defined for this example in ATA/ATAPI-6 allows for faster booting. Sumit moved and Curtis seconded that the document be left as it is. The motion carried 7:1:5. There was general consensus that this issue should be readdressed via a proposal in ATA/ATAPI-7. vii. Schedule Review The schedule for the project as it is reflected in the following table was reviewed. Schedule Item Original Prior Current Project proposal Oct-99 Oct-99 Oct-99 Initial draft Jun-00 Jun-00 Jun-00 Proposal cut-off Aug-00 Aug-00 Aug-00 Stabilized draft Feb-01 Feb-01 Apr-01 Letter ballot Apr-01 Jun-01 Aug-01 Forward to NCITS Jun-01 Aug-01 Oct-01 Sumit moved and Curtis seconded that the last to schedule items (Letter ballot and Forward to NCITS) be slipped by two months. The motion passed 13:0:0. The following table reflects the dates for the new schedule. Schedule Item Original Prior Current Project proposal Oct-99 Oct-99 Oct-99 Initial draft Jun-00 Jun-00 Jun-00 Proposal cut-off Aug-00 Aug-00 Aug-00 Stabilized draft Feb-01 Apr-01 Apr-01 Letter ballot Apr-01 Aug-01 Oct-01 Forward to NCITS Jun-01 Oct-01 Dec-01 2) EDD - 2 project 1484-D (d1484r0) [Stevens] Curtis Stevens said that the first revision of this draft standard was made from the last draft of the EDD standard (d1386r5). Curtis moved and Sumit seconded that e01125r0, e01127r0, and e01133r0 be included in the next draft for this project. The motion carried 12:0:0. Curtis agreed to make a new draft of the project. i. EDD raid option ROM RAID proposal (e01125r0) [Stevens] This proposal is intended to add the BIOS requirements for RAIDs. Curtis said that he has spoken with other folks about the content of this proposal and would like to include the content of this proposal into the EDD-2 draft (see 7.2). ii. SCSI CDBs (e01127r0) [Stevens] Curtis said that he has to include the ability for both 32-bit and 64-bit addressing. Curtis said that he has spoken with other folks about the content of this proposal and would like to include the content of this proposal into the EDD-2 draft (see 7.2). 1. SCSI passthrough e01133r0 [Roberts] These are changes suggested by Ron Roberts and will be included in EDD-2. Curtis said that he would like to include the content of this proposal into the EDD-2 draft (see 7.2). iii. Packet sending services for EDD (e00143r1) [Stevens] Curtis said that this proposal is to allow users to use applications to extract device calls from the BIOS functions so that they could be used for various functions (like SMART functions during manufacturing operations). Curtis said that he felt that this could be used for ATAPI, SCSI, 1394, and USB. iv. Draft review (d1484r0) [Stevens] Curtis said that he thought there was no reason to perform a review of the first draft in that its content was that of the approved standard. The first review of the new draft standard will be conducted on the next revision of the draft which will include new proposals or revisions that have been accepted by the group. 3) ATA/ATAPI Host Adapters project 1510-D i. Draft review (d1510r0) [Goodfellow] Tony Goodfellow reviewed revision 0a of the document. Tony agreed to make a new revision of the document including input from the meeting. ii. ADMA presentation (e01134r0) [Stevens] Curtis Stevens made a presentation describing his implementation of ADMA including some performance data. 4) Proposal for command integrity checking (e00160r0) [McLean] Pete McLean said that he had nothing new on this proposal but wished to leave it on the agenda for now. 5) Consolidated ATAPI PACKET command set (e00150r0) [Goodfellow] There was no document to review at this meeting, but Tony Goodfellow requested that this item be kept on the agenda. 6) Extended cable lengths (e00151r1) [Goodfellow] This item will be considered for ATA/ATAPI-7. Tony is waiting for input from others who had agreed to test the data that had previously been presented. 7) Larger sector size ( ) [Colegrove] Dan reported that he had requested a liaison report from IDEMA and will have an update at the next meeting. 8) Errata for ATA/ATAPI-5 (e01122r0) [McLean] Pete reported that this was discussed at the July NCITS meeting and sent out for NCITS letter ballot approval. 9) ATA/ATAPI-7 project i. Project proposal (e01116r1) [McLean] Pete McLean presented r1 of this proposal. Curtis Stevens moved and Darrin Bulik seconded that this project proposal be forwarded to NCITS. The motion carried 13:0:0. 10) INTRQ assertion, negation, release, pull-up (e01119r0) [Barras] Larry Barras presented his proposal that requested a specification for leakage current on the device's driver for INTRQ or, alternately, a 6.2 K ohm pull-down on the signal at hosts that implement level sensing of this signal. Device folks said that they wanted to speak with their designers and they could discuss this at the next meeting. 11) FLUSH CACHE command modification proposal (e01126r0) [Noblitt] Marc Noblitt presented a proposal to add a DWE (deferred error) bit in bit 4 of the Status register (as is used for the streaming commands) for the FLUSH CACHE EXTENDED command. This is so that any write cache error that has occurred since the previous FLUSH CACHE command can be reported to the host. Several folks said that their devices would hang if a write cache error occurred. Marc said that he will go back and check how his drives function. i. Queuing enhancements (e01128r0) [Goodfellow] Tony Goodfellow presented his proposal for queuing enhancements. . 12) T13 Reflector, FTP, and Web Site Setup Ron Salmon reported that Phoenix has an issue with getting the name reregistration ownership changed from Tom Hanan to them, but may be close to having this resolved. Curtis Stevens reported that Tom Hanan has given him access to the account. Hale said that there was a different company that had the mail address which would cause mail to be sent to that address. Curtis said that he thought we could still bring up t13.org or [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. Hale was skeptical. Pete McLean reported that he had spoken with John Lohmeyer about hosting the web and ftp sites on the same server as T10. Ron agreed that Phoenix would continue to pursue working with Tom Hanan, and Pete said that he would speak with John Lohmeyer to determine exactly what he could do. In the meantime, Hale Landis has agreed to continue to host and maintain a reflector for some period of time after all of the issues with a new reflector are resolved. 13) Open issues list There are no open issues. 8. New Business 9. Liaison Reports 1) T10 The latest T10 liaison report from John Lohmeyer has been posted as e01131r0. 2) SFF Dan Colegrove reported on the activities at the last SFF working group meeting. 3) IDEMA There was no report as there had been no relevant working group meetings since the last T13 meeting. 10. Call for Patents The Chairman explained the patent policy. A document is available from ANSI, "Procedures for the Development and Coordination of American National Standards", at no charge. This document is also on the WWW at ftp://www.ncits.org/help/ansi_sdo.html. Section 1.2.11 contains the ANSI patent policy. Amy Marasco manages patent issues for ANSI and can be contacted at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 212-642-4954. The Chairman then called for patents and/or patent applications that may be necessary to comply with the requirements in T13 standards, draft standards, technical reports, or draft technical reports. There were no responses to the call for patents. 1) Convolve The Chairman reported that NCITS counsel sent a letter to Convolve on February 20, 2001 requesting them to notify NCITS if they believed they had intellectual property claims with regard to ATA/ATAPI-6 and, if so, requesting that Convolve agree to the ANSI patent policy. No response has been received from Convolve at this time. Pete McLean reported that he had spoken with folks at NCITS and they said they would speak with their legal department and would get back to T13 soon. 11. Review of Action Items 1. Pete McLean shall forward the project proposal for ATA/ATAPI-7 (e01116r1) to NCITS. 12. Meeting Schedule 1) Authorization of ad hoc working groups 2) Long term meeting schedule The meeting dates, locations, hosts, and contacts were reviewed for CY2003 (included below). Mark Evans moved and Ron Salmon seconded that the schedule be accepted. The motion carried unanimously. CY 2001 Dates Location Host Contact October 23-25, 2001 Kauai, HI Pacific Digital Tony Goodfellow December 11-13, 2001 Irvine, CA Western Digital Darrin Bulik CY 2002 Dates Location Host Contact February 19-21, 2002 Placerville, CA Adaptec Ron Roberts April 23-25, 2002 Longmont, CO Seagate Marc Noblitt June 25-27, 2002 Irvine, CA Phoenix Ron Salmon August 20-22, 2002 Longmont, CO Maxtor Pete McLean October 22-24, 2002 Maui, HI Pacific Digital Tony Goodfellow December 16-18, 2002 Irvine, CA Western Digital Darrin Bulik CY 2003 Dates Location Host Contact February 18-20, 2003 Placerville, CA Adaptec Ron Roberts April 22-24, 2003 Longmont, CO Seagate Marc Noblitt June 24-26, 2003 Irvine, CA Phoenix Ron Salmon August 19-21, 2003 Longmont, CO Maxtor Pete McLean October 21-23, 2003 TBD Pacific Digital Tony Goodfellow December 16-18, 2003 Las Vegas IBM Dan Colegrove Note: 3) Meetings are scheduled for three days only. 4) Due to the change in the Dell membership, the April, 2002 meeting has been changed from Dell hosting in Austin to Marc Noblitt of Seagate hosting this meeting in Longmont, CO. As noted above the next plenary meeting of T13 is October 23rd through 25th in Kauai, Hawaii, hosted by Tony Goodfellow of Pacific Digital. A host meeting notice has been sent out on the reflector and will be added to the web site. 13. Adjournment The meeting adjourned by the Chairman, Pete McLean, upon completion of all the agenda items at 11:30 A.M. on Thursday, August 23, 2001. [Enclosure 1 - Membership] [Enclosure 2 - Document directory] -- If you have any questions or wish to unsubscribe send a message to Hale Landis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] To post to this list server send your message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For questions concerning Thistle Grove Industries or TGI's list services please send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]