Suction point is probably not the right word in English. I haven't found
any specific idiomatic usage of this phrase, so it seems to just mean
"point where suction is present/applied". Dry Hydrant seems a better fit
for what you are discussing, do you agree?
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/gallery/firewise/operationWater/step3.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant#Non-pressurized_.28dry.29_hydrants
//colin
On 2017-08-17 12:32, Moritz wrote:
> Hi François, hi Alberto,
>
> we had in the past days a discussion on the german OSM forum[3 [1]] and
> agreed on the point that
> a point where you can suck water from a water source is a
> emergency=suction_point.
> Our understanding of a fire hydrant is, that it is connected to a water main
> and thus any
> suction point is no fire hydrant.
>
> The special case of commercial area where the owner is responsible for the
> hydrants and the hydrants are fed by
> pumps from ground water or by tanks were not discussed (as Viking81 wrote on
> the discussion pages of [1 [2]] and [2 [3]]).
>
> As I am a firefighter by myself I think there is such thing, but I will
> figure out with the local fire department.
>
> We furthermore agreed that there is no need of my newly proposed tag
> emergency=fire_water_well as we can define
> the different types of suction points by adding appropriate tags for each
> type.
>
>> My point is suction points and fire hydrant are different but compatible
>> things, as follow :
>> emergency=suction_point is a prefered place where to pump water in a river
> I think you meant from a river. But yes I agree.
>
>> emergency=fire_hydrant
>> is a kind of device which may or not be present in places like suction
>> points but in a large amount of other places.
>
> Nope.
> Fire hydrant: pressurized water from water main. Edge case of Vikings point
> not yet covered
>
> Hydrants that serve factories or shopping centers often are not connected to
> the public water main:
> instead they are connected to a private local water network fed by pumps that
> suck water from the ground.
> So these local water networks and their hydrants are fed by what we can call
> water wells.
Suction points
Points where the firefighter have to bring there own pump to suck water
from pond, river or well.
These suction points can be equipped with a pipe connected to the water
or not. Something like this with pipe [4 [4]][5 [5]][6 [6]].
Or this [7 [7]][8 [8]] which also is a suction point, which can has a
sign. But basically it's just an somehow prepared point to have
easier access to the water itself.
> We need to know if the common accepted definition of suction point is this:
>
> Suction points aren't devices like hydrants but are preferred places
> to pump water from a not pressurized water source (river, pond, well).
Yes
> Hydrant is an equipment/device and suction point is a place where you
Yes
> may or not find a hydrant.
No. I would not call a pipe at a suction point hydrant (lack of
pressured water).
At least from my German point of view, because here pipe and hydrant
look different.
> In this case the hydrant will be tagged emergency=fire_hydrant +
> fire_hydrant:pressure=0.
Nope, because then you have emergency=fire_hydrant but you have to bring
your own pump to get water. To be sure you have to
evaluate the fire_hydrant:pressure tag to determine what it is.
Here is the outcome of the discussion in the German forum:
# Suction point with pipe at a lake, river, stream etc (like [5 [5]])
emergency=suction_point
suction_point:source=water
suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
# Suction point at fire_water_pond (artificially created pond, otherwise
it is the above one)
emergency=suction_point
suction_point:source=fire_water_pond
suction_point:volume=# (volume in m^3)
suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min,
medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
# Some prepared suction place at lake, river, stream etc, but without a
pipe (like [8 [8]][7 [7]])
emergency=suction_point
suction_point:type=suction_place
suction_point:source=water
# Suction point at water_tank
emergency=suction_point
suction_point:source=water_tank
suction_point:volume=small|medium|large|# (small 75-150 m^3, small
150-300 m^3 und large>300 m^3; volume in m^3)
suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min,
medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
# Normal fire water well
emergency=suction_point
suction_point:type=fire_water_well
suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min,
medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
fire_water_well:type=suction
fire_water_well:water_level=# (distance water level-ground)
# Fire water well with integrated pump (electric or water driven pump)
emergency=suction_point
suction_point:type=fire_water_well
suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green
suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min,
medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)
fire_water_well:type=bilge_pump|electric_pump
With this tagging scheme there are still some issues:
For productivity tag I just copied from the German standards.
In case of a water_tank the volume belongs technically to the water_tank
itself
but not to the suction point. But I think it is more convenient because
as water_tanks
are usually hidden under ground they are not as visible as suction
points. So I
assume they will be not mapped as often as suction points. Other point:
to get the volume
information of the suction point you have also to check the next
water_tank. Seems inconvenient.
For the special case hydrants on commercial area sourced from pumps or
water_tanks I would go for hydrant. Because
the whole thing behaves more like a hydrant then a suction point (at
least as long the tank is not empty or the wells
are not exhausted).
Why is a water well with an integrated pump not a hydrant:
Special case of water well. And firefighters expect from a hydrant that
they just have to connect there hose and get water easily.
With the well with integrated pump you have to keep in mind that you
have to bring a pump or a generator.
I would suggest, that we discuss all stuff here, not on the wiki
discussion page as long as no new participant shows up.
Mailinglist is easier to use.
Cheers,
Moritz
[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions
[2]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well
[3] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352
[4]
http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg
[5] http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg
[6]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg
[7]
http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg
[8]
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg
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Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
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Links:
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[1] https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352
[2]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well
[4]
http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg
[5] http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg
[6]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg
[7]
http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg
[8]
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg
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