Following up to myself, a few things I didn't have time to say last night. Once we accept that the base notion of ele= means WGS84 geoid height (meaning the MSL sort of height), and that ellipsoidal heights basically have no place in OSM, then:
0) The entire notion of looking at a sign on a mountain and believing that is suspect. I certainly think it's fair to put in a sign object with an inscription, as "there is a sign" is a fact. But on mountains here, there is often some number in feet, and it's never clear whether that's in NGVD29, or NAVD88. Often the number doesn't change much and it doesn't matter. But a sign with a number without a datum has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. (As I understand it, most countries have a 20s-50s generation height system and an 80s/90s height system, and many are moving to a 2020s height system.) 1) For this proposal to be considered, we need to have examples of how different elevations are between "WGS84 altitude" and various national height datums. In the US, the differences are at the meter or so level. So while the ability to enter national datum heights without losing accuracy is useful, there is complexity in use to trade off against that. I suspect that differences from most other national vertical datum to WGS84 are small. 2) As always, I am concerned that tagging discussions tend to focus on what taggers want to represent and not be so concerned with how data consumers uses the tags. Tags are after all a protocol that is written by mappers and read by renderers, routers, etc. It's therefore important that simpler data consumers get sensible answers, and that mappers being less precise provide data that is not grossly wrong. Therefore, if we're going to represent this, I think we should say: ele=<ELEVATION> ele:datum=<DATUM_CODE> where ELEVATION is some sort of "height above sea level", where the main/primary datum is the WGS84/EGM, and if it is in some other datum (e.g. NAVD88 in the US and I am seeing various other ones on the list), then ele:datum denotes that datum. This means that if a mapper just puts in an elevation, ignoring vertical datum, or if a renderer ignores it then nothing terrible happens, just a meter or two of fuzz. And, if the mapper is precise, and the renderer deals, then all is ok with no loss of precision due to datum issues. I'll also say that this alternate datum notion is irregular, in that we expect horizontal positions to be transformed from national horizontal datums to WGS84, and that putting in a tag to say that coordinates were in some other datum would be, I think, considered madness. Instead, we expect people to transform any such data to WGS84. (And we realize that meter level shifts are not that important usually, because measurements and source data is rarely that good.) _______________________________________________ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging