I agree we need to think about the map, not the rules. look at the first map you see when you type OSM into google. Its a map of europe. It shows London, prague, and warsaw but not paris or berlin. Lisbon but not madrid, budapest but not rome. And here, at a slightly different zoom level we get Sydney, Melbourne, Albury and Cooma but not the nations capital - canberra. In fact, Queenbeyan appears before CAnberra. I've just noticed that Queenbeyan also appears before Alice Springs, for goodness sake. In my opinion, if the guidelines generate these counter intuitive maps , then the guidelines are wrong. I have made Alice Springs a city, but feel free to change it back if this violates some rule. We are map makers, not programmers, which means we interpret the physical world through a cultural lense to make a document that helps others. Embrace subjectivity. The number of people living in an area is only one reason a settlement should show up on a map. I would argue one of the lesser reasons, unless the purpoe of that map is to map population density. cheers, adrian. > From: talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Talk-au Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 > To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 12:00:04 +0000 > > Send Talk-au mailing list submissions to > talk-au@openstreetmap.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > talk-au-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > talk-au-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-au digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. (Paul HAYDON) > 2. Re: cities changed to towns (Steve Bennett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:37:43 +1100 > From: Paul HAYDON <cadmana...@live.com.au> > To: Talk-AU OSM <talk-au@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns > Message-ID: <snt002-w16383afc8c960153517deea8c...@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi everyone, Firstly, a qualification:I've not read the Wiki on this subject, > so this is simply my opinion without the support of guidelines/rules/etc. I > believe, having authored/compiled some detail Magellan maps for eXplorist > GPSrs this year, that more important than guidelines or rules that are > documented, there needs to be a hierarchy in the data. Obviously, a city in > Europe will be much larger than one in Australia, and similarly, ours will be > much larger than those in more remote countries. And the size differs, not > only in population, but also in geographical area (since population densities > also vary). For example, let me just describe the east coast of N.S.W., > centred on Sydney: I reckon Sydney, Newcastle, and Wollongong are > "no-brainers" - they're cities. But also, Gosford and Wyong on the Central > Coast should be classified the same. Now, while I'm sure such places as > Parramatta are also cities (I've not verified this, but I'm pretty sure), > from a mapping perspective, Sydney is probably all that is needed. So, on a > broad view, you will see Sydney, with Newcastle to the north, and Wollongong > to the South, as well as Gosford/Wyong midway between Sydney & Newcastle. > The next level should then be those centres within the metropolitan areas > which warrant attention: in Sydney, such places as Strathfield, Parramatta, > Penrith, Chatswood, Hornsby, Hurstville & Sutherland (plus, I'm sure there > are others). IMHO, keeping sight of the end-use (i.e. a map) is more > important than strictly applying a "rule" based purely on numbers (although, > when in doubt, these can be helpful). So places like Parramatta might not be > classified as "cities" when in fact they are, while others in more remote > parts of our country might be classified, even though they might not be > "cities". Any thoughts? Cheers,Paul. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20121211/1c467a61/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 22:56:37 +1100 > From: Steve Bennett <stevag...@gmail.com> > To: Alex Sims <a...@softgrow.com> > Cc: talk-au <talk-au@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns > Message-ID: > <CA+z=q=uUgqFsEr+0_pxv8vtj526oEL9PayPKbe=chkmp4mh...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >I would want "place=city" to refer to an urban populated area of at least > 100,000 people as per http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place#Values > > > > > I've taken to fixing errors from Geofabrik OSMI and have changed places to > > match the schema above. Whilst I find hamlet & village grate on me as > > words, they are merely "code" for an object to be mapped. It's only really > > issue because I speak English (Australian) and the OSM schema was developed > > in English (United Kingdom) that there is an issue. If we all spoke Finnish > > or Swahili we wouldn't be having this discussion now. > > > > Ok, well what might be an obvious "error" to you is correct to someone > else. There are many OSM tags that have different meanings in different > parts of the world. It would be good to be consistent within Australia, but > it's not important whether our meaning precisely matches the meaning in the > UK or some other country. > > Looking at the wiki page you cite, it's clear that those definitions are > intended as rules of thumb: "Populations of villages vary widely in > different territories but will nearly always be less than 10,000 people, > often a lot less."; "[Cities s]hhould normally have a population of at > least 100,000 people and be larger than nearby towns." Normally, in densely > populated areas, that is. Applying that cut off in Victoria would lead to > only Melbourne and Geelong qualifying, with Bendigo and Ballarat just > missing out. > > Steve > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/attachments/20121211/4d2fdba1/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > > End of Talk-au Digest, Vol 66, Issue 13 > ***************************************
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