Re: [talk-au] Unauthorised bike trails in national parks

Sun, 09 Aug 2015 21:23:10 -0700

I agree David,
 
Hence why these tracks were left just as highway=path
 
Stephen.
 
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 at 2:11 PM
From: "David Clark" <dbcl...@fastmail.com.au>
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Unauthorised bike trails in national parks
I come across similar situations quite often and you could write an essay on access to each individual trail but it's not worth it and still doesn't improve the accuracy or clarity.
 
My opinion is that the situation is sufficiently vague enough that I wouldn't tag any specific access or restrictions.
 
It's an interesting topic Tony I hope you're not discouraged, keep mapping. :-)
 
David
 
Hi all
Sorry, I referred to signs and brochures as 'maps' in my last mail,
yes they do  contain maps which can't inform our decision, but they
also contain text information which can.
Tony
 
Thanks stev391 and others for the feedback and the welcome.
 
Re real world indications of bicycle=no, there is a lot of signage in
the area indicating that only formed and signed bike trails can be used
and that the creation and use of other tracks is illegal.
 
Map of authorised bike paths at Horswood Rd
 
Detail of above stating "Ride only on formed trails designated for
cycling. Do not take shortcuts or make new trails."
 
sign at cnr Logan Park Rd and Wellington Rd "Please remain on formed
Management tracks only, penalties apply"
 
Detail of sign "Cyclists are not permitted ... to ride on tracks...
other than those designated for mountain bike riding"
 
Detail of sign, map showing authorised trails
 
Sign at cnr Dargon Tk and Wellington Rd
 
Example of signage on authorised bike track (Dargon Track)
 
Thanks for the photo of Ant Trail. Another at the link below
Ant trail at Sunset Tk looking east
 
It appears that this is not a "formed track" or a "designated track".
The signage in the area therefore indicates that its use is illegal.
 
A similar but unnamed track at
 
Park notes
map the authorised trails and indicate that the use of other trails is
illegal. We do not always rely on on ground signage for tagging, for
example footpaths would be tagged as cars=no even though there are no
barriers or signs.
 
Re the name of the trail, it is unclear how widely the name Ant Trail
is known, it is not supported on the ground by eg signage.
 
I spoke briefly with the head ranger Lysterfield last week and expect
to talk again in the next 2 days and hope to get an official answer on
(a) the exact legal status of these trails
(b) whether Parks Vic has a position on how they should be mapped
 
So please hold off retagging for a couple of days.
 
Thanks
Tony
 
 
TONY,THANKS FOR FIRSTLY RAISING YOUR PROPOSED EDIT PRIOR TO MAKING
THE CHANGE (AND ALSO WELCOME TO THE OPENSTREETMAP COMMUNITY).  I HAD
NOT BEEN TO THAT TRACK IN ABOUT 6 MONTHS, SO NEEDED TO REVISIT TO SEE
WHAT WAS ON THE GROUND BEFORE PRESENTING MY ARGUMENT.  PLEASE DO NOT
TAKE THIS AS AN ATTACK ON YOURSELF AND I HOPE THAT YOU CONTINUE TO
CONTRIBUTE TO THE MAP. I AGREE WITH BRYCE, IT IS DEFINITELY NOT
BICYCLE=NO AS THERE IS NOTHING IN THE REAL WORLD TO INDICATE THAT
THIS NOT ALLOWED TO BE ACCESSED. SEE:
'BICYLCE=NO': "WHERE BICYCLES ARE NOT PERMITTED, ENSURE THIS IS
INDICATED "AS YOU CAN SEE IN THE BELOW REFERENCED PHOTOS, THERE
IS NO INDICATION THAT THIS IS NOT PERMITTED.  THE TRACK IS QUITE WELL
DEFINED AND WELL USED, HERE IS SOME PHOTOS OF THE
TRACK:HTTP://WWW.MAPILLARY.COM/MAP/IM/YU6LBMRK8FBJT1LPJZJLHW/PHOTO(YOU
MIGHT NEED TO SCROLL OUT USING THE SCROLL WHEEL IF THE PHOTO LOOKS TOO
ZOOMED IN)IN THAT SEQUENCE OF PHOTOS YOU CAN SEE THE FIRE ACCESS TRACK
WHICH IS VERY UNDEFINED (JUST LOW CUT GRASS, WITH OCCASSIONAL WHEEL
RUTS) AND A VERY CLEAR MTB TRACK. TO COUNTER THE ARGUMENTS THAT IT
NEEDS TO BE SIGNED, THERE IS NO SIGN AT THIS INTERSECTION OF THE FIRE
TRAILS, DOES THIS MEAN IT IS NOT DEFINED AND IS NOT ALLOWED TO BE
THIS TRACK APPEARS TO BE QUITE POPULAR ACCORDING TO THE STRAVA
SEGMENTS:HTTPS://WWW.STRAVA.COM/SEGMENTS/5483327
(SOUTHBOUND)HTTPS://WWW.STRAVA.COM/SEGMENTS/5483306 (NORTHBOUND)THIS
ALSO SHOWS THAT THE TRACK HAS EXISTED IN THE REAL WORLD FOR AT LEAST
2 YEARS, BEING USED AS A BICYCLE TRACK. I ALSO REFER YOU TO THIS OSM
WIKI PAGE:HTTPS://WIKI.OPENSTREETMAP.ORG/WIKI/HOW_WE_MAPWHICH CLEARLY
STATES "WHEN IN DOUBT, ALSO CONSIDER THE "ON THE GROUND
RULE": MAP THE WORLD AS IT CAN BE OBSERVED BY SOMEONE PHYSICALLY
THERE."(SIMILAR WORDING APPEARS HERE:
TONYF1'S EDIT SHOULD BE REVERTED AS:1) THE TRACK IS THERE AND MORE
WELL DEFINED THAN OTHER FEATURES IN THE AREA.2) OSM IS A MAP OF WHAT
IS IN THE WORLD, NOT WHAT COPYRIGHTED MAPS HAVE STATED.3) THIS IS A
COMMONLY USED MOUNTAIN BIKE TRACK, WITH A RECOGNISED NAME.4)
BICYCLE=NO REQUIRES THIS TO BE INDICATED IN THE REAL WORLD. HAPPY TO
HEAR COUNTER POSITIONS, BASED ON OSM PRINCIPLES, NOT WHAT SOMEONE
(PARK RANGER) SAID TO LIMIT THEIR LEGAL LIABILITY. STEPHEN.   SENT:
Friday, August 07, 2015 at 10:51 AM
FROM: "Bryce Nesbitt" <bry...@obviously.com>
SUBJECT: Re: [talk-au] Unauthorised bike trails in national parks  It
physically exists, and therefore I view it as legitimate in OSM. But
access=no is not quite the right twist on things.It really belongs to
a much larger category of unofficial things: from rope swings to
campgrounds to fruit trees,that people build without the permission
of the landowner. I often want to know the difference.
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