I think we have tried to reach out directly in the past but I could be wrong. Communication is 100% the issue, and not for lack of trying.
If anyone does have contacts within NPWS or is willing to try and reach out to get a discussion going, it definitely would be worth a shot. Even if it's just to organise some way for one or two of us to sit down with them or jump on a call with them to explain that we want their contributions towards OSM, but there's a right and wrong way to do it, and even just help them to understand how downstream sources use our data is out of our control, that'll hopefully be enough to at least keep both us and them happy. If we're lucky it might even open some doors for us to work with them further and improve OSM further. Thanks, Andrew Welch m...@andrewwelch.net On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 21:41, <fors...@ozonline.com.au> wrote: > Thanks Adam, well put. > > There are two groups, both trying to be of service to the wider > community. The mappers trying to build better maps and land managers > trying to protect and manage public land well. > > If a land manager sees mappers not respecting their decisions about > managing public land, they will see it as vandalism. If mappers see > Parks deleting map data, they will see that as vandalism too. > > The problem is that there is very little communication between the two > groups. Partly because Parks people are overworked and time poor, at > least in Victoria which I know best. Also because consensus management > and public forums are an unfamiliar form of management for Parks. They > are looking for the person in charge and confidential discussions. > > The paths include high stakes stuff, some trivial, but also tracks > that may lure people over cliffs and environmental damage that may > last forever. We are doing better at communicating than the land > managers are at the moment. That is good. I am glad to be part of this > group which is so patient and so responsible. I want us to keep being > responsible and keep listening. > > And I again invite the land managers to engage with us in discussion, > here or another place of their choice. It is a serious issue that will > only be resolved through discussion. > > Tony > > > Wait ... does the OSM community seriously want to call public land > managers > > vandals for attempting to manage access to parts of public land > effectively? > > > > This is a publicly archived forum, which land managers may read. > > > > It's been raised a few times, and I have no problem raising this again: > > > > - OSM have zero control over who renders what downstream, regardless of > > tags. > > > > - the existence of trails in a map infers useability at some point. > > > > - continually reinstating trails to a database may incur real world > > monetary, ecological, landscape and cultural costs, aside from time of > > people engaging in slow edit wars. Who is OSM is then liable for those > > costs? > > > > - who in the land management community would now feel inclined to join > this > > discussion? It seems obvious the OSM community isn't prepared to listen, > > only to talk... > > > > This thread has been a bit mind numbing. I've tried hard to avoid writing > > this post, and couldn't any more. > > > > There are more important values than a database. Land managers have > better > > things to do that have edit wars. > > > > And to repeat, OSM has no control over who renders what downstream. > Please > > respect a land managers decision, or at least ask about it respectfully > and > > wait as long as is needed for a response. They're busy..managing land. > > > > With regards, > > > > Adam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 29, 2024, 21:09 Andrew Welch via Talk-au < > > talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > > >> As much as we want to wait on them and work with them, there?s probably > a > >> point at which we should treat their edits like vandalism (and just > revert > >> their deletions) until they actually work with us. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Andrew Welch > >> m...@andrewwelch.net > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 8:13?pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick < > graemefi...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I've yet had no response back from Stephen Stenberg re Slate Falls > >>> Lookout, after I basically repeated what you all had already said > >>> to him :-( > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> > >>> Graeme > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 10:51, Andrew Welch via Talk-au < > >>> talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> The user who's edits were revered by Frederik has now tagged those > ways > >>>> as access=no, hopefully that means the message is starting to get > >>>> across to > >>>> NPWS. > >>>> > >>>> They did set some questionable names on those trails though, and > haven't > >>>> replied to a changeset comment asking about those. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Andrew Welch > >>>> m...@andrewwelch.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 at 23:12, Mark Pulley <mrpul...@iinet.net.au> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> There?s probably going to be other examples of NPWS deleting paths. > >>>>> I?ve just had a look at the Jungle Circuit in Blackheath. This > >>>>> was deleted > >>>>> by NPWS https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/144648041 - at least > >>>>> most of it was, a small bridge was left behind near the creek, and > the > >>>>> first part from Rodriguez Pass was left alone. With Rodriguez Pass > >>>>> currently closed, I?m not able to check it in-person. It was > passable in > >>>>> 2017, with some indistinct sections, so it?s possible that the 2020 > fires > >>>>> and 2022 floods have finished it off. I?ve asked a clarifying > question on > >>>>> the changeset. > >>>>> > >>>>> Mark P. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 27 Feb 2024, at 8:53?pm, Frederik Ramm <frede...@remote.org> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I haven't followed this thread and I don't know if this is relevant > to > >>>>> the discussion but I have just reverted the deletion of a bunch > >>>>> of paths in > >>>>> Tweed Shire, NSW here > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147956474 > >>>>> - the deleter claims to have ties to NPS. > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" > >>>>> E008°23'33" > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Talk-au mailing list > >>>>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Talk-au mailing list > >>>> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> Talk-au mailing list > >> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > >> > > > > > > >
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