Hi, Sorry that you got dragged into this discussion but it pops up sometimes...
In short: When you are not sure don't use the map as a source. When you have permission from the author just put that permission up on the OSM-wiki. More information is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission Happy Mapping, Ben On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:40 PM, hvdb <henk...@gmail.com> wrote: > my my ... what a 'discussion' over such a 'simple asking' .... ;P > so ... if i could get a map or some info, what should one do then, so that > it is ' legal' ... get a 'stamp' on such a map/papers , or something else ? > Also ... how should one post/map such map/info on OSM, to proof that it is > 'OK' for the people of the city hall ? > > 2015-02-01 16:26 GMT+01:00 <talk-be-requ...@openstreetmap.org>: > >> Send Talk-be mailing list submissions to >> talk-be@openstreetmap.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> talk-be-requ...@openstreetmap.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> talk-be-ow...@openstreetmap.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Talk-be digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? >> (Sander Deryckere) >> 2. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels) >> 3. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 13:18:59 +0100 >> From: Sander Deryckere <sander...@gmail.com> >> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org> >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking >> time? >> Message-ID: >> < >> cabuouo8srrodvgl5iui4cufusvahc2fwkdt177bk5nwkytw...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright. >> There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter here. >> Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists. >> >> We're talking about Sui Generis database rights ( >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive). >> >> The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials >> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part" >> or even "a database" is. >> >> However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is >> >> >> - A collection of different records: there are different streets with >> data >> - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a >> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place >> (which is >> the intended purpose of this map) >> >> The Sui Generis right protects >> >> - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of >> streets is complete, and the information about those streets is >> complete >> - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification >> or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The >> information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the >> municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and >> rendering >> that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's >> similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess >> that governments just shouldn't have any servants. >> >> Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is given) >> the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a substantial >> part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's again both, >> since the information offered by the council is most likely of high >> quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high quantity. >> >> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge >> that this is a violation to the database rights, >> >> >> Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data is >> just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can >> compare >> the results with the existing council data and find differences. Examining >> those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just >> importing >> mistakes. >> >> As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more >> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such >> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally >> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's >> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part. >> >> May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just >> claimed >> they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a result, >> brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft. >> Microsoft >> even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold than from >> their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our data (say >> Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. Google) >> because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be copyrighted, >> so you can just copy from images like google maps. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Sander >> >> 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com>: >> >> > Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and especially >> > the law. >> > The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not >> required >> > to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by one if >> > what you see on the map is correct. >> > Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not >> > where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you >> cannot >> > reproduce). >> > Same for the boundaries etc. >> > >> > André. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Talk-be mailing list >> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150201/8b9e0677/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 15:12:22 +0100 >> From: Andre Engels <andreeng...@gmail.com> >> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org> >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking >> time? >> Message-ID: >> < >> cagzcz0qqponcbaowq2cmumz1s3da8uk9nofoxqxvwh6kcps...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <sander...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about >> copyright. There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't >> matter here. Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists. >> > >> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights ( >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive). >> > >> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials >> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part" >> or even "a database" is. >> > >> > >> > >> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is >> > >> > A collection of different records: there are different streets with data >> > Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a >> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place (which is >> the intended purpose of this map) >> > >> > The Sui Generis right protects >> > >> > qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of streets >> is complete, and the information about those streets is complete >> > substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification or >> presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The information >> can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the municipal council. >> However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering that map takes >> time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's similar to about all >> tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess that governments just >> shouldn't have any servants. >> > >> > Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is >> given) the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a >> substantial part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's >> again both, since the information offered by the council is most likely of >> high quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high >> quantity. >> > >> > So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will >> judge that this is a violation to the database rights, >> > >> > >> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data >> is just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can >> compare the results with the existing council data and find differences. >> Examining those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just >> importing mistakes. >> > >> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more >> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such >> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally >> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's >> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part. >> > >> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just >> claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a >> result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft. >> Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold >> than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our >> data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. >> Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be >> copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps. >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Sander >> > >> > >> > 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com>: >> >> >> >> Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and >> especially the law. >> >> The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not >> required to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by >> one if what you see on the map is correct. >> >> Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not >> where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you cannot >> reproduce). >> >> Same for the boundaries etc. >> >> >> >> André. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Talk-be mailing list >> >> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Talk-be mailing list >> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 16:25:53 +0100 >> From: Andre Engels <andreeng...@gmail.com> >> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org> >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking >> time? >> Message-ID: >> <CAGzCZ0pExrafZt+f9QO_9r7dJMLd+KssDQ1f= >> tmgva4yxn0...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <sander...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about >> copyright. >> > There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter >> here. >> > Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists. >> > >> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights ( >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive). >> > >> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials >> > that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial >> part" >> > or even "a database" is. >> > >> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is >> > >> > >> > - A collection of different records: there are different streets with >> > data >> > - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a >> > single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place >> (which is >> > the intended purpose of this map) >> > >> > The Sui Generis right protects >> > >> > - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of >> > streets is complete, and the information about those streets is >> complete >> > - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, >> verification >> > or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The >> > information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the >> > municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and >> rendering >> > that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's >> > similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I >> guess >> > that governments just shouldn't have any servants. >> > >> > Read >> >> http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035 >> >> "Ook het begrip 'investering in de presentatie van de inhoud van een >> gegevensverzameling' moet beperkt worden uitgelegd. Niet alle kosten voor >> de presentatie vallen daaronder, maar alleen die kosten die worden gemaakt >> om de databank de gegevens te kunnen laten verwerken." >> >> And further: >> "De door [A] ten slotte nog genoemde kosten voor het drukken van de >> handleidingen met de normtabellen (EURO 3.000,-) en de tijdsbesteding voor de >> opname van de normgegevens uit de tabellen in P2O (volgens [A] twee weken >> fulltime werk per test), zijn naar het oordeel van de rechtbank - in >> verhouding tot de kosten van de ontwikkeling van een test in zijn geheel - >> niet als substantieel aan te merken" >> >> Would it really be more than 3000 Euros plus 2 weeks of a full-time >> employee to put these data in a GIS database? >> >> For more examples, the following were considered NOT to have a >> considerable >> investment (or at least, the companies behind them not to have shown >> considerable investment) by the Dutch judges: >> * The Dutch public broadcasting company's database of programs and their >> data >> * RyanAir's database of all its flight data >> >> THOSE are the kinds of database the discussion is about. NOT a map with >> some roads coloured and a legenda. >> >> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge >> > that this is a violation to the database rights. >> > >> If he hasn't laughed you away already, he will very easily say that no, >> this is not a protected database. >> >> >> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data >> is >> > just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can >> compare >> > the results with the existing council data and find differences. >> Examining >> > those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just >> importing >> > mistakes. >> > >> Best is the enemy of good. Yes, surveyed data is better than imported, and >> combined data is better than either. But that's only the case if you have >> the choice. Imported data is better than no data. It is also better than >> data you know to be wrong. >> >> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more >> > strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such >> > advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally >> > grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. >> It's >> > not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part. >> > >> There is no legally grey zone here. You are creating it yourself. >> >> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just >> > claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a >> > result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to >> Microsoft. >> > Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold >> > than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our >> > data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. >> > Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be >> > copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps. >> > >> Now, that's a jump. From picking a few points of data from another source >> than your own eyes to wholesale copying of another source... If the only >> way to keep people from breaking database rights is by increasing its >> extend into the ridiculous and then once more, maybe the time has come to >> just stop using volunteers for this project. >> >> >> >> -- >> André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150201/9eca4091/attachment.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Talk-be mailing list >> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2 >> ************************************** >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > >
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