In my town , it is mostly the 'INFO Office' (=Tourisme Office) , which makes/distributes/publishes flyers/maps with info about traffic/tourism and so on, ... so, is it possible to make those people 'enthousiastic' for OSM, by a 'simple method' ? -> i mean here by ; people are not going to read all those 'rules' about copyright and so on ... much to 'complex', and sometimes/mostly not in Flemish ... i mean here ; a simple website to publish such maps/info, so that it satifies all rules of OSM , and preferable in Flemish to read ?
2015-02-01 20:21 GMT+01:00 <talk-be-requ...@openstreetmap.org>: > Send Talk-be mailing list submissions to > talk-be@openstreetmap.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > talk-be-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > talk-be-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-be digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2 (Ben Abelshausen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 20:21:13 +0100 > From: Ben Abelshausen <ben.abelshau...@gmail.com> > To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2 > Message-ID: > <CAOisDiV0LCOyPpYCo+VTPwRAwkGGKe=WV2jej7YcKcC= > nkq...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi, > > Sorry that you got dragged into this discussion but it pops up sometimes... > > In short: When you are not sure don't use the map as a source. When you > have permission from the author just put that permission up on the > OSM-wiki. > > More information is here: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/GettingPermission > > Happy Mapping, > > Ben > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:40 PM, hvdb <henk...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > my my ... what a 'discussion' over such a 'simple asking' .... ;P > > so ... if i could get a map or some info, what should one do then, so > that > > it is ' legal' ... get a 'stamp' on such a map/papers , or something > else ? > > Also ... how should one post/map such map/info on OSM, to proof that it > is > > 'OK' for the people of the city hall ? > > > > 2015-02-01 16:26 GMT+01:00 <talk-be-requ...@openstreetmap.org>: > > > >> Send Talk-be mailing list submissions to > >> talk-be@openstreetmap.org > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> talk-be-requ...@openstreetmap.org > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> talk-be-ow...@openstreetmap.org > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of Talk-be digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? > >> (Sander Deryckere) > >> 2. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels) > >> 3. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 13:18:59 +0100 > >> From: Sander Deryckere <sander...@gmail.com> > >> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org> > >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking > >> time? > >> Message-ID: > >> < > >> cabuouo8srrodvgl5iui4cufusvahc2fwkdt177bk5nwkytw...@mail.gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about > copyright. > >> There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter > here. > >> Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists. > >> > >> We're talking about Sui Generis database rights ( > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive). > >> > >> The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials > >> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial > part" > >> or even "a database" is. > >> > >> However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is > >> > >> > >> - A collection of different records: there are different streets with > >> data > >> - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a > >> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place > >> (which is > >> the intended purpose of this map) > >> > >> The Sui Generis right protects > >> > >> - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of > >> streets is complete, and the information about those streets is > >> complete > >> - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, > verification > >> or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The > >> information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the > >> municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and > >> rendering > >> that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's > >> similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I > guess > >> that governments just shouldn't have any servants. > >> > >> Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is > given) > >> the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a > substantial > >> part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's again both, > >> since the information offered by the council is most likely of high > >> quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high > quantity. > >> > >> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will > judge > >> that this is a violation to the database rights, > >> > >> > >> Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data > is > >> just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can > >> compare > >> the results with the existing council data and find differences. > Examining > >> those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just > >> importing > >> mistakes. > >> > >> As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more > >> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such > >> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally > >> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. > It's > >> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part. > >> > >> May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just > >> claimed > >> they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a result, > >> brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft. > >> Microsoft > >> even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold than from > >> their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our data (say > >> Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. Google) > >> because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be > copyrighted, > >> so you can just copy from images like google maps. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Sander > >> > >> 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com>: > >> > >> > Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and > especially > >> > the law. > >> > The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not > >> required > >> > to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by one > if > >> > what you see on the map is correct. > >> > Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not > >> > where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you > >> cannot > >> > reproduce). > >> > Same for the boundaries etc. > >> > > >> > André. > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Talk-be mailing list > >> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > >> > > >> > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150201/8b9e0677/attachment-0001.html > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 15:12:22 +0100 > >> From: Andre Engels <andreeng...@gmail.com> > >> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org> > >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking > >> time? > >> Message-ID: > >> < > >> cagzcz0qqponcbaowq2cmumz1s3da8uk9nofoxqxvwh6kcps...@mail.gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <sander...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about > >> copyright. There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't > >> matter here. Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists. > >> > > >> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights ( > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive). > >> > > >> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few > trials > >> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial > part" > >> or even "a database" is. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is > >> > > >> > A collection of different records: there are different streets with > data > >> > Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a > >> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place > (which is > >> the intended purpose of this map) > >> > > >> > The Sui Generis right protects > >> > > >> > qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of > streets > >> is complete, and the information about those streets is complete > >> > substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification > or > >> presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The > information > >> can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the municipal > council. > >> However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering that map takes > >> time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's similar to about > all > >> tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess that governments just > >> shouldn't have any servants. > >> > > >> > Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is > >> given) the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a > >> substantial part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's > >> again both, since the information offered by the council is most likely > of > >> high quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high > >> quantity. > >> > > >> > So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will > >> judge that this is a violation to the database rights, > >> > > >> > > >> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed > data > >> is just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can > >> compare the results with the existing council data and find differences. > >> Examining those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than > just > >> importing mistakes. > >> > > >> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more > >> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such > >> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally > >> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. > It's > >> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part. > >> > > >> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just > >> claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a > >> result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to > Microsoft. > >> Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold > >> than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our > >> data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. > >> Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be > >> copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps. > >> > > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > Sander > >> > > >> > > >> > 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com>: > >> >> > >> >> Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and > >> especially the law. > >> >> The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not > >> required to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one > by > >> one if what you see on the map is correct. > >> >> Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not > >> where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you > cannot > >> reproduce). > >> >> Same for the boundaries etc. > >> >> > >> >> André. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Talk-be mailing list > >> >> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Talk-be mailing list > >> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 16:25:53 +0100 > >> From: Andre Engels <andreeng...@gmail.com> > >> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be@openstreetmap.org> > >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking > >> time? > >> Message-ID: > >> <CAGzCZ0pExrafZt+f9QO_9r7dJMLd+KssDQ1f= > >> tmgva4yxn0...@mail.gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <sander...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about > >> copyright. > >> > There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter > >> here. > >> > Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists. > >> > > >> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights ( > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive). > >> > > >> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few > trials > >> > that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial > >> part" > >> > or even "a database" is. > >> > > >> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is > >> > > >> > > >> > - A collection of different records: there are different streets > with > >> > data > >> > - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of > a > >> > single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place > >> (which is > >> > the intended purpose of this map) > >> > > >> > The Sui Generis right protects > >> > > >> > - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of > >> > streets is complete, and the information about those streets is > >> complete > >> > - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, > >> verification > >> > or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The > >> > information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from > the > >> > municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and > >> rendering > >> > that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than > that's > >> > similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I > >> guess > >> > that governments just shouldn't have any servants. > >> > > >> > Read > >> > >> > http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035 > >> > >> "Ook het begrip 'investering in de presentatie van de inhoud van een > >> gegevensverzameling' moet beperkt worden uitgelegd. Niet alle kosten > voor > >> de presentatie vallen daaronder, maar alleen die kosten die worden > gemaakt > >> om de databank de gegevens te kunnen laten verwerken." > >> > >> And further: > >> "De door [A] ten slotte nog genoemde kosten voor het drukken van de > >> handleidingen met de normtabellen (EURO 3.000,-) en de tijdsbesteding > voor de > >> opname van de normgegevens uit de tabellen in P2O (volgens [A] twee > weken > >> fulltime werk per test), zijn naar het oordeel van de rechtbank - in > >> verhouding tot de kosten van de ontwikkeling van een test in zijn > geheel - > >> niet als substantieel aan te merken" > >> > >> Would it really be more than 3000 Euros plus 2 weeks of a full-time > >> employee to put these data in a GIS database? > >> > >> For more examples, the following were considered NOT to have a > >> considerable > >> investment (or at least, the companies behind them not to have shown > >> considerable investment) by the Dutch judges: > >> * The Dutch public broadcasting company's database of programs and their > >> data > >> * RyanAir's database of all its flight data > >> > >> THOSE are the kinds of database the discussion is about. NOT a map with > >> some roads coloured and a legenda. > >> > >> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will > judge > >> > that this is a violation to the database rights. > >> > > >> If he hasn't laughed you away already, he will very easily say that no, > >> this is not a protected database. > >> > >> > >> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed > data > >> is > >> > just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can > >> compare > >> > the results with the existing council data and find differences. > >> Examining > >> > those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just > >> importing > >> > mistakes. > >> > > >> Best is the enemy of good. Yes, surveyed data is better than imported, > and > >> combined data is better than either. But that's only the case if you > have > >> the choice. Imported data is better than no data. It is also better than > >> data you know to be wrong. > >> > >> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more > >> > strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of > such > >> > advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a > legally > >> > grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. > >> It's > >> > not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part. > >> > > >> There is no legally grey zone here. You are creating it yourself. > >> > >> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just > >> > claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a > >> > result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to > >> Microsoft. > >> > Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were > sold > >> > than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use > our > >> > data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants > (f.e. > >> > Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be > >> > copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps. > >> > > >> Now, that's a jump. From picking a few points of data from another > source > >> than your own eyes to wholesale copying of another source... If the only > >> way to keep people from breaking database rights is by increasing its > >> extend into the ridiculous and then once more, maybe the time has come > to > >> just stop using volunteers for this project. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > >> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150201/9eca4091/attachment.html > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Subject: Digest Footer > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Talk-be mailing list > >> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> End of Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2 > >> ************************************** > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Talk-be mailing list > > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150201/b3bbb511/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 4 > ************************************** >
_______________________________________________ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
