Hi Gruff, hi Ben,
On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful
for this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a
single name tag for each place name - giving the impression that one
language has precedence over another.
Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence
over another". If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for
everyone to use. It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map
using only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out,
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already). Other maps can
choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182
for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or
English-first, or use different colours for different languages, or, or...
The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.
With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If
we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and
that OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity
to respect native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers
didn't. Could we take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic
Welsh place names where that's possible?
OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral -
see
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf
. It favours "on the ground" current usage. The Data Working Group
gets _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of
country X is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be
displayed at osm.org in language Y". Where the majority of people in an
area speak a different language to the majority of people in the rest of
the country, it is only fair to reflect that local language in the
"name" tag. OSM should not be making decisions about which placenames
are more "authentic" than others via some sort of "historical
authenticity test". Imagine trying to apply that to Kaliningrad
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442 (look at all the
"old_name" tags there for context). In Wales, OSM has occasionally had
mappers making "forced language changes" both ways - either changing
names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh versions of the
original English and English speakers changing original (and most common
in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.
One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an
external body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place
names that we can refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language
Commissioner provides a recommended list of standardised place names
for Wales which is licensed under OGL 3.0:
http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx
<http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx>
Different OSM communities do this in different ways. I believe that in
Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from
local usage. Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin
"Anglesea Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's
just "Bóthar Anglesea". See also
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which I've heard referred to
as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics both national and
local associated with that).
All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM
and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't
go against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative
with my edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into.
Overall I think you should be congratulated for broaching the subject
and trying to pin down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot
of strong sentiment in this part of the world!
As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that
Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not. It
always strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in
predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will
use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's
trying to show Welsh names).
Moving on to Ben's original mail:
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <b...@benproctor.co.uk
<mailto:b...@benproctor.co.uk>> wrote:
From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for
discussion, replacing this text with the following (reasoning
follows):
/[starts/---]
In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the
place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but
not both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but
not name: Wales/Cymru.
/
/Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is
known in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas
as another. In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to
the locally-used language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169 makes sense to me./
/That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437 is currently "name=Cymru /
Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area
comment on whether that's appropriate or not.
/
/
/
/
name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or
feature is known in English.
name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or
feature is known in Welsh
Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:
name: Swansea
name:en Swansea
name:cy Abertawe
This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
rather than duplication is conveying useful new information./
/[---/ends]/
/I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for
essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes
there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name". Otherwise if
someone was to change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it
would break map.atownsend.org.uk which explicitly tries not to show
compound names in Wales, England or Scotland. Someone who does want to
show compound names can of course do that using "name:cy / name:en".
For completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do use
compound names. The Brussels region of Belgium is another example, and
hyphenated names there are I believe "the official names". That sort of
tagging hasn't traditionally been done in Wales, England, or Scotland
though.
/
Best Regards,
Andy
For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who
tend to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that
the developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ .
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