On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 11:37 AM Dhaval Giani <dhaval.gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:11 AM Russell Reiter <rreite...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 11:52 PM Dhaval Giani via talk <talk@gtalug.org> >> wrote: >> >>> https://lwn.net/Articles/764901/ >>> >>> ... >>> >>> To tie this all back to the actual 4.19-rc4 release (no, really, this >>>> _is_ related!) I actually think that 4.19 is looking fairly good, >>>> things have gotten to the "calm" period of the release cycle, and I've >>>> talked to Greg to ask him if he'd mind finishing up 4.19 for me, so >>>> that I can take a break, and try to at least fix my own behavior. >>> >>> ... >>> >>> Jono Bacon's comments on it, >>> >>> >>> https://www.jonobacon.com/2018/09/16/linus-his-apology-and-why-we-should-support-him/ >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> Another interesting article that I read over the past few days was a >>> Python keynote talk, >>> https://snarky.ca/setting-expectations-for-open-source-participation/ >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> On a more personal note, I have seen "hostile" behavior on many mailing >>> lists, which has led me from withdrawing from participating on them. >>> >>> We tend to attack developers without thinking of the impact on them. >>> >>> This list is an example of attacks on systemd. While Lennart doesn't >>> read this list personally, I do know of the impact systemd criticism has >>> had on him. He has shared recordings of death threats because of systemd. I >>> think, we can all agree that, systemd, or pulseaudio did not make linux >>> worse, at least enough to justify death threats. >>> >>> They haven't even made it bad enough to justify the constant attacks on >>> the software. >>> >>> Remember, if you have a better idea, you have the _freedom_ to implement >>> it. You, however, do not have the freedom to expect them to drop what they >>> want to do, to fix your problems, and when they don't want to, be subject >>> to attacks from you. >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> I do hope, Linus taking some time off will make things better for him, >>> and by extension Linux. >>> >> >> >> The Poettering hit man story is four years old. It didn't stop him from >> his own rant, they are after all just words. >> >> > They are just words for you. But you ignore a phone call from an unknown > number. And then you listen to voicemail, and it a voicemail threatening to > kill you because of systemd, at that point in time, it has stopped being > mere words. Yes, 4 yrs old. Has it stopped having impact? No. > > >> >> https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/lennart-poetterings-linus-torvalds-rant/ >> >> "Open Source community is full of a******s, and I probably more than most >> others am one of their most favourite targets. I get hate mail for hacking >> on Open Source. People have started multiple 'petitions' on petition web >> sites, asking me to stop working (google for it). Recently, people started >> collecting Bitcoins to hire a hitman for me (this really happened!). Just >> the other day, some idiot posted a 'song' on YouTube, a creepy work, filled >> with expletives about me and suggestions of violence. People post websites >> about boycotting my projects, containing pretty personal attacks." >> >> Also on a personal note, you contacted me offlist to chastize me about >> some trivial comment I made about pulseaudio and at least one other person >> has named you pubically on this list for the same type of conduct. >> >> > I apologize for that. > Apology accepted and my own is offered up to you in return, for my own insensitivities in posting. Sometimes I forget the first rule of digial comment sensibility, wait and think before you hit send. > > >> Now you make this post as a maintainership note about why you leave >> hostile lists. What exactly do you define as hostile behaviour? I'd define >> it as being trolled offlist by someone who harvested my email and decided >> they had the right to contact me, just because they could. >> >> Systemd is a thing. Writing publically about a thing, even in criticism, >> even if you use words you can't say on TV, is so far removed from your own >> private ad hominem remarks offlist that I am raising your poor conduct, to >> remind you; just because you post a couple of true facts, that doesn't >> authenticate a third postulate you have formulated as some sort of >> gratification index. >> >> > I am just going to ignore the last bit. I bring up systemd, because it is > quite a bit my baby as well. I take every attack on it personally (rightly > or wrongly, and that is my problem, not _yours, as you have quite pointed > out later on in your email). Which quite brings to my point, you have folks > who are directly impacted by your words. Am I right in defending my baby? > Am I right in getting defensive about it? Am I right in not being able to > separate out the project from the person? These are all personal questions. > > All that matters is, everything people say, has an impact, and a result. > You might call it illogical (in your opinion), but it has happened. There > have been times where I felt I could participate in discussions and talk > about it. > > Spectre/Meltdown was one such. I talked about the importance of it, and it > was immediately shot down as corporate conspiracy. Of course, we are still > dealing with the fallout. What is my relation with this? For the last many > months, I have been part of the response force for my employer to deal with > the intel flaws. But feeling (note the word) attacked, doesn't make me feel > inclined to share. Certainly not my loss. > > I'm not exactly sure what it is that you maintain > > > I don't actively maintain anything right now. I took time off for mental > health reasons. Part of it is physiological, but a lot of was exacerbated > by working in open source. That is a different story, and not the topic of > this email. If you want, ping me offlist, and I will send you a more > detailed email. > Stress is one of the most enduring problems in the modern corporste world. Sorry if I have added to your own at this time. I do appreciate the fact that it takes a particular kind of fortitude to continue to participate under such adverse conditions and I hope you understand my regret is sincere. > >> but I think both Lennart and Linus can look after their own issues >> without your or anyone else this lists intervention. > > >> > Of course they can. And once again, it is not a question of your, or my > intervention. It is a question of communication. Do your (trivial) words > have an impact? Are they going to have a positive impact? Are they going to > benefit the community? > > If there is something I am starting to believe this week, it is this. Open > source is a great model for development. It is a horrible model for humans > though. We have this project which is developed for free (in the monetary > sense), in the open, (ideally) in collaboration with the world. But all you > are getting is negative feedback in return. I cannot think of a single > model, where that is a success story. > We all learn from our own and each others mistakes. > > >> Free speech is a cornerstone of progressive thinking, feel free to ignore >> this post. >> >> > It is the greatest power out there, and always remember the spiderman law > when this is the case. With great power comes great responsibility. Use > your free speech responsibly. > Not really a big reader of comics myself, but think I get what you are saying. > > Dhaval >
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