A note on this thread in general: Please keep it clean and the one-line responses to a minimum, or take them off-list - there's too much traffic for posts that don't have real content.
Hi Kristina, et al, Wow, what a thread... I remember a similar one years ago, and obviously these types of issues are still preeminent - regardless of the economy. I agree Kristina - there is a mismatch between the underlying importance of IT workers (notably developers, architectures, etc) and their recognition, reward, and appreciation (yes, cry for us, Argentina). As many of us probably do, I have an ear on the start-up, entrepreneurial and "Silicon Alley" crowd as it's often coined. What's always surprising, and frankly somewhat amusing, is that through the technology start-up process - concept development, prototyping, funding, implementation - the technology people are often secondary, and even trivialized. Typically the importance of the technology - and the technical aspects of the project - are given only grunt recognition, not much beyond that of a ditch digger (no offense the ditch diggers on the list). Then, once a company enters a more mature phase - like revenue - these same companies now struggle to find good technical talent in order to scale and sustain themselves. That said, there are consistently good looking jobs out there - just look at the NYPHP-Jobs list. Anyone who really wanted a good job, could get one - the PHP job market is extremely tight - and even in this rocky economy, a good developer can call their price. And if you're dealing with one of those start-ups that was annoying last year, like in any job market, sometimes you have to swallow your pride. H > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:talk- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kristina Anderson > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:00 PM > To: NYPHP Talk > Subject: Re: [nyphp-talk] Why IT Sucks > > Tom -- > > The average corporate attorney makes $200K. The average attorney in > business for themselves makes about the same. The average CPA, about > 150K. The average doctor, electrician, etc. etc. etc...way more than > we do. > > The AVERAGE programmer makes, what, 80K if on salary? (I'm self > employed and the hourly rate I can get from the clients is pretty > constricted by the market, and I'm trying to bust open that 100K > barrier but it won't be busted...I'm still on the losing end.) > > And you don't feel this is an ISSUE? You don't honestly feel that the > social status of the IT profession needs some improvement, that most of > us are underpaid? > > Come on, work with us. > > -- Kristina > > > Guys, I have to be honest, this "Webmaster test" and its associated > > threads are a train wreck for me. I can't stop reading them, > although > > admittedly I find them ridiculous. > > > > I do believe in the saying, "if you don't have something nice to > > say..." which is why I haven't commented thus far, but if this email > > below is flamebait, then, well, you got me (and no, I'm not the type > > to fall for Rick Rolls). > > > > "Connected with the low social status of IT" > > "I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence?" > > "I see two things that suck about careers in IT: (1) the pay" > > > > Are you kidding me? Listen, I don't know you or your status, but > this > > is not the life I've lived through my career in technology or the > > perception I have of the industry, nor is it that of my friends and > > colleagues. I mean no disrespect, but have you actually tried > > looking? > > > > To be fair, IT is a very general term, and I suspect you might be in > > the more traditional definition of it, meaning corporate LAN support > > and the like. But for web engineers, this should not be the case, > > despite the recession. To be blunt, I have friends and colleagues > > with multiple offers, from the "big guys". The recruiters are > calling > > and messaging on the social networking sites daily. So, to paint the > > picture that this field is disintegrating, or not really a > profession, > > or whatever, to lurkers, newbies and veterans alike is just plain > > wrong. > > > > As for that 3 comment I flagged, well, I do agree with the 2nd point > > you listed there. That does suck. But, then again, you see that in > > every industry. > > > > And for those yearning for a life of state licensing and unions, > > please be careful what you wish for. The same system that protects > > many also keeps many others out of work. Ask a Long Island K-12 > > teacher why they can't get a job even though they are at the top of > > their field. Ask any contractor that has to compete on the lowest > > possible price because they are bound by law to do things a certain > > way with certain tools with certain procedures. They've commoditized > > their industries and now can't differentiate themselves from others > in > > their field. And, when was the last time you saw any real innovation > > in those fields that made its way to us? I'm still turning on the > > lights the same way my parents did. > > > > Tom > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:32 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > <rant> > > > This is a continuity reboot of the "Webmaster test" thread. > > > > > > I'm a member of the ACM, although I don't know why. There's a > lot of handwringing in "Communications of the ACM" about the state of > the IT job markets... Is it expanding or contracting? Why aren't more > women in IT? It sounds like "blah blah blah" to me. > > > > > > You hear a lot of talk about the threat of outsourcing to US IT > jobs... The way I see it, outsourcing doesn't cause unemployment for > IT workers but it does lower our pay and it does lower our social > status -- which is the point people don't talk about. > > > > > > I see two things that suck about careers in IT: (1) the pay, > and (2) working for people who don't know what they hell they're doing. > > > > > > I'm not going to complain about my current situation, which is > pretty much what I need at this point in my life, but, like a lot of > people in IT, I've worked at a string of crazy places. > > > > > > IT jobs pay better than working for Wal*Mart, but my brother- > in-law, who works as a foreman on a construction site, gets paid > better than me -- despite the fact that I've got twice the education > and skills that seem to be rare and in demand... (It's always seemed > that way no matter which side of the table I've sit at in job > interviews) Construction workers have a union, but IT people don't > work. > > > > > > Last summer I was a contractor at a company that had a great > culture, great clients and was working with interesting and fun > technology. I got offered a job that had a big 401K (makes wall street > rich) and the potential for a large bonus, but no health insurance. I > mean, I've got a PhD and I can't even manage a middle class existence? > > > > > > The work I do takes as much training, skill and independent > thought as being a doctor, a lawyer or accountant -- but I don't get > paid accordingly and I don't get the respect... For a while I worked > at a place that hosted a talk by the author of a book called "Leading > Geeks" -- could anybody get away with writing a book about "Leading > Niggers?" > > > > > > Connected with the low social status of IT, there's the whole > problem of taking orders from people who don't know what's going on... > There are certainly some counterexamples... Certainly some places that > know what time it is, but there's a reason why so many people feel > like Dilbert. > > > </rant> > > > > > > =============== > > > > > > Generation Five Interactive > > > http://gen5.info/q/ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > > > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php _______________________________________________ New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online http://www.nyphpcon.com Show Your Participation in New York PHP http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
