> Do I assume right you refer to the Studium Generale (no, not General Studies, > which I think is a joke that one can get a degree for that)? Yes, that was the > typical type of study in european universities for centuries. It wasn't meant > to prepare for "a" profession or trade, but do so for all of them. Students > were taught everything that the western world knew at the time. Of course, > after the knowledge explosion after the 17th century this was no longer possible. > Back then there was also no need for large amounts of university graduates. > That has changed drastically and is one reason more why programs specialized > into various branches and need to specialize even more.
Yes, that is what I was referring to and you are right, the educational system has to change over time to meet society's needs...but right now in the US we have this particular system still in place. Other comments: Admittedly I'm not a "typical person" in the IT field -- I have a liberal arts education, and almost 10 years in another field before deciding to make the change to IT (programming) in my early/mid 30s. I'm now in my mid 40s (45 in August) and have been getting paid to write code for 10 years. It was a steep learning curve and I had to spend at least 2 or 3 years in the "learning stage" (which I did on my own time while continuing to work in my previous field). But I was bright, worked hard, and I learned enough to be at least competent. Some managers probably would not want to hire me because they are looking for a "traditional" IT person...i.e. a 23, 24 yr old guy with a CS degree. But those types of people are not always suitable to move up into management or lead teams, and they don't have the "soft skills"...communication, maturity, knowledge of different businesses and industries, and etc. etc. etc. that a lot of managers know are extremely valuable in an IT person. Probably most managers are going to make hiring decisions based on what's worked for them in the past. But a lot of them also know that a team is best if people do have a range of skills...and aren't all a homogeneous group of people the same age with the exact same educational background and skillset. And also I feel there is a lot of transferability between liberal arts and any field one chooses to go into...for instance, I studied the structure and usage of human languages...now I use different programming languages and they have similarities and differences just as human languages do...and then I spent 7 (of the most boring) years of my life proofreading and editing legal contracts...which taught me patience to wade through tons of code (which isn't exactly stimulating reading either in most cases!!), and a careful eye for detail. So I feel that even if it's not "vocational," there is a place for liberal arts in education and it's not a waste of time to study it on the university level. And also it bears mentioning that back in the early 80s, as a young white female my chances of getting into an "engineering program" were slim to zero. I remember wanting to take Physics my senior year of HS and being told that "girls do not need that class since they will not be studying science or math in college anyway" (and mind you I was a National Merit Scholar and had been in "advanced" courses most of my school life)...and still they would not let me enroll. Hopefully things have changed a bit since then. -- Kristina > Kristina Anderson wrote: > > I'm sure most of you already know this but essentially, in times past > > in the United States (and I have to assume hundreds of years ago in > > Europe, as well, although that apparently has changed), the > > undergraduate university degree was seen as a "gentleman's education", > > teaching a liberal arts curriculum that essentially prepared you for no > > useful trade and was sharply contrasted by any "utilitarian" > > or "vocational" education, which taught a trade or skill specifically > > for the purpose of earning money by working (which young gentlemen > > attending university back then usually did not do, but moreso sat > > around on their rear ends reading arcane texts in the original Latin, > > drinking heavily and perhaps going into politics...some things have not > > changed!). > > Do I assume right you refer to the Studium Generale (no, not General Studies, > which I think is a joke that one can get a degree for that)? Yes, that was the > typical type of study in european universities for centuries. It wasn't meant > to prepare for "a" profession or trade, but do so for all of them. Students > were taught everything that the western world knew at the time. Of course, > after the knowledge explosion after the 17th century this was no longer possible. > Back then there was also no need for large amounts of university graduates. > That has changed drastically and is one reason more why programs specialized > into various branches and need to specialize even more. Even the vocational > training changed a lot over the past 100 years in Germany, my grandfather went > to a business to learn by doing, I too went to a business, but also spent > considerable amount of time in specialized schools to learn the theory. > > > > And vestiges of this system clearly survive to this day even though we > > now have a much higher percentage of students continuing to the college > > level, and many of them with expectations that "going to college" will > > teach them "what they need to know to get a good job". That isn't the > > function of the university, the function of the university is to > > provide a broad based liberal arts education. That's why even a B.Sc. > > student in an engineering discipline is expected to take 80 or 85 > > credits of miscellaneous "useless" liberal arts or general courses at > > US universities. > > Yes, but this is how things were done in the past and it may have worked then. > I think US universities with a few exceptions don't generate the talent that > the industry needs today, neither in quality nor numbers. I clearly see the 13 > years K-12 as the place for a broad education that satisfies the needs for a > liberal arts education. > > > Therefore you can see that the reasoning behind this curriculum is NOT > > that US university students are "not ready for higher education" after > > high school or that "university is a continuation of HS" in the US [to > > paraphrase from below]...it's that we here in the US have always had a > > particular notion that liberal arts WAS a university education, and > > that "vocational" or "skills" training was not something that any > > respectable person had to worry about until AFTER 4 years at university. > > OK, but that is exactly why especially in the IT field a lot of work goes > overseas or talent from overseas gets brought here. Just read the complaints > from the C level managers in the various technical magazines, unless they > happen to have a university that is willing to cooperate with companies in > order to produce graduates with the skills and knowledge needed. > I think that after 4 years of university an engineering graduate is supposed > to be capable of performing engineering tasks and not need yet another 4 years > hands on training before he or she is starting to be useful. Who would you > hire? A 4 year grad that spent 4 years or one that spent only 2 years on the > subject? > As mentioned before, the liberal arts education is better placed in elementary > and high schools and I think 13 years ought to be enough to learn and master > what is needed. If someone decides that more training in writing or reading or > math is needed, fine, take an extra course or two. I'm not saying that those > courses are useless or a waste of time, I just think that they ought to be > considered extra and not be part of a degree program. Ajai described it nicely > in his replies and he may just be right that the perspective that we have of > knowing both systems allows us to see the difference. > > > Vocational training is all well and good and yes, does make > > attractive "workers", but will not replace a solid well rounded > > university education. > > That is because also the vocational training here in the US generally sucks. I > spent three and a half years as radio- and TV technician apprentice. I worked > in a business and also spent considerable amounts of times in specialiced > schools. We not only learned the theory, math and science needed, but also > business economics, occupational safety and additional hands-on work. We > learned how to make circuit boards, how to drill them, how to bend, cut, and > drill metals and other materials. While working in the business I did not just > sit in the shop fixing TVs and VCRs, but also sold devices, went out to > customers, and installed cable TV and satellite dishes. That means I also had > to learn how to open and close roofs and install electric outlets following > code. I even got the same basic training as an electrician. I don't know how > it is in NY, but in CT you don't need any of that in order to even open a TV > repair business. I germany you need a craftsmen's masters degree for that, > which means more schooling and tests. And that is the norm at least for the > past 60 years. I prefer that, especially when it is for example for a car > mechanic. I want someone with proper training to fix my breaks and not just > some schmuck off the street who knows what a wrench is good for. I know that > the shops here in NYS need a special license, but I do not know what that > includes. I know from other states that the "licensing" includes paying a fee > and nothing else. > > See, the US has excellent universities like MIT, CIT, Harvard, Yale, but can > these universities produce enough graduates to satisfy the needs of the US > industry? Definitely not, so all the other universities need to fill the void > and when you look at the rankings of the other US universities in > international comparison others tend to be better or as good. I did look at > the various international rankings. Universities in non-english speaking > countries tend to show up around the 30th place and below. Excellent > universities like IIT were even absent on the lists I've seen. I did see > Leiden and Barcelona in some, but so far at the bottom that I wonder if > language and location played a role. There seems to be no fully independent > organisation that compares universities. > > David > _______________________________________________ > New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > > NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online > http://www.nyphpcon.com > > Show Your Participation in New York PHP > http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php > > _______________________________________________ New York PHP Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk NYPHPCon 2006 Presentations Online http://www.nyphpcon.com Show Your Participation in New York PHP http://www.nyphp.org/show_participation.php
