Yes, window eyes has come a long way sense then. Notice how many screen
readers are no longer around sense then?
-----Original Message-----
From: Loy via Talk
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 8:25 AM
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: Loy
Subject: Re: contacting Doug.
This would not be a air comparison now, Window Eyes progressed much faster
than JAWS since 1996.
----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Kiehne via Talk
To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: Russ Kiehne
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: contacting Doug.
Check this out from times past!
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:49:26 EDT
From: Jamal Mazrui <74444.1...@compuserve.com>
Subject: CSUN "Dueling Windows"
Sensory Access Foundation has published a "Dueling Windows"
report in the Spring 1996 issue of Access Review. It
summarizes a competition among Windows screen readers that was
held at the 1996 CSUN conference in March. I am prefacing the
article with some tabulations I did with its data.
Since the article does not quantify the performance of each
screen reader according to its criteria, I did such an analysis
for the interest of readers. I assigned a value of 2 for
accomplishing a task, 1 for accomplishing it with difficulty, and
0 for failing it. If anyone observes an error in my arithmetic,
please let me know.
Artic's WinVision
accomplished: 7
accomplished with difficulty: 2
failed: 6
total points: 16
average: 1.06
Berkeley's OutSpoken for Windows
accomplished: 9
accomplished with difficulty: 5
failed: 1
total points: 23
average: 1.53
GW Micro's Window-Eyes
accomplished: 5
accomplished with difficulty: 1
failed: 9
total points: 11
average: .73
Henter-Joyce's JAWS for Windows
accomplished: 13
accomplished with difficulty: 1
failed: 1
total points: 27
average: 1.8
IBM's Screen Reader/2
accomplished: 13
accomplished with difficulty: 1
failed: 1
total points: 27
average: 1.8
Syntha-Voice's Window Bridge
accomplished: 5
accomplished with difficulty: 4
failed: 6
total points: 14
average: .93
TeleSensory's Screen Power for Windows
accomplished: 5
accomplished with difficulty: 7
failed: 3
total points: 17
average: 1.13
Based solely on this analysis, JAWS for Windows and Screen
Reader/2 were tied for top. They were followed by OutSpoken for
Windows, Screen Power for Windows, WinVision, Window Bridge
and Window-Eyes.
Let me remind readers that Windows access products are rapidly
developing so that new versions might lead to significantly
different results today. In fact, some developers have already
made enhancements to address problems encountered at this
competition.
----------
Dueling Windows: An Overview
by Kenneth Frasse
(re-printed with permission of Sensory Access Foundation
from Access Review, Vol. I, No. 1, Spring 1996)
Abstract
In March, at the CSUN International Conference on Technology and
Persons with Disabilities held in Los Angeles, California, Mark
Nelson of the Foundation for Blind Children hosted a pre-conference
seminar called "Dueling Windows". This seminar attempted to
contrast and compare graphical user interface (GUI) screen review
software in applications for Windows. The format of the seminar
was to pose identical tasks to each of the vendors in alternating
order and have the vendors demonstrate the ability of their
products to perform the specified tasks. Since SAF does not sell,
distribute, or endorse any single GUI screen reader, we attempted
to generate an objective review of the GUI screen readers
demonstrated.
Editor
Similar to the 1995 Closing the Gap presentation of Dueling
Windows, Mark Nelson of the Arizona-based Foundation for Blind
Children coordinated another Dueling Windows at the March CSUN
conference in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles seminar differed in
several respects from the first seminar at Closing the Gap, not the
least of which was that the seminar was six hours long. It was
similar to the Closing the Gap seminar in that it was composed of
questions and tasks that each of the vendors had to answer or
perform. Notably, Greg Meise of the Kansas-based Missing Link
Technologies, Kerry Malone-Cook of the Southern Oregon Goodwill,
and Jay Stiteley of The New Jersey-based Seeing Eye, Inc. joined
Mr. Nelson as the three panelists who would present the questions
of the day; these panelists also formed the impetus for creating
Dueling Windows. I wish to take a moment to explain the
presentation and approach of this article so that the reader may be
as clear on the issues presented as possible. I will present
Dueling Windows in five sections:
1) Who was there: Which GUI software were represented at the
seminar and what are some of the fundamental equipment differences
between them that the seminar results might not make obvious for
the reader;
2) Technical Set-up: What was the technical set-up for the
seminar;
3) Environment: What are the advantages and disadvantages of the
Dueling Windows environment;
4) Results: The Dueling Windows results;
5) Summary and commentary.
Who was there
Seven GUI screen reader developers were represented at the seminar.
These included:
1) Artic Technologies's WinVision 2 v2.16;
2) Berkeley Access's outSPOKEN for Windows v1.2 (vb26 public
beta)
3) GW Micro's Window-Eyes v1.03;
4) Henter-Joyce's JAWS for Windows (JFW) v1.2;
5) IBM's Screen Reader/2 (SR/2) v2.0;
6) Syntha-Voice's SLIMWARE Window Bridge v2.21;
7) TeleSensory's ScreenPower for Windows (SPW) v1.47B.
Nearly all GUI screen readers were represented by their respective
owners/developers/staff except for WinVision which was represented
by one of their California authorized dealers, Paul Hendrikson.
Window Bridge also opted to have a student user demonstrate the
latter portion of the seminar in lieu of Niel Cooper who
demonstrated the first segment. The other participants were Josh
Miele of Berkeley Access, Mike Lawler of GW Micro, Ted Henter and
Glen Gordon of Henter-Joyce, Inc., Guido Corona of IBM, and Scott
Duncan of TeleSensory, Inc.
Several of the GUI screen readers claim to possess electronic
braille display support, but TeleSensory was the only vendor who
brought and used their own PowerBraille 40-cell display;
unfortunately, the airlines misplaced TeleSensory's PB-40, and Mr.
Duncan was unable to demonstrate the braille display ability until
later in the afternoon. (TeleSensory claims that one of the
strengths of ScreenPower for Windows is its braille display
support. SAF will soon be testing and comparing braille display
support, and the results will be published in ACCESS REVIEW.
Technical Set-up
The seminar was performed on 7 identical Pentium computers with 16
megabytes of RAM; these machines were generously donated by IBM.
Each of the computers had a 17-inch monitor that was turned 180
degrees away from the participant and facing the audience so that
the audience could review where the participant was in their
manipulations. Additionally, a large overhead screen displayed to
the audience the monitor of the individual vendor who was
performing tasks; vendors were not allowed to visually review the
monitor. All audible feed from the computers was sent to DECtalk
voice synthesizers which were in turn fed into the main PA of the
room.
Each vendor installed their own GUI screen reader and peripherals
associated with their software. Aside from TeleSensory's eventual
use of the PB-40, IBM's Screen Reader/2 used an external keypad
from which all operations were performed. Mr. Corona did have one
piece of software that differed from the other vendors; IBM uses
their own Web Explorer for Internet access while the other GUI
screen readers use Netscape for their access to the Internet.
Since real-time access to the Internet posed a tactical impasse,
the vendors had to download prepared pages from their own hard
drives; it was assumed that this would mostly resemble real-time
operation on the Internet.
Lastly, the seminar was split into two three-hour sessions with an
emphasis on spread sheets in the morning, and an emphasis on
Netscape and word processing in the afternoon. The applications
used included Microsoft Access, Microsoft Excel, Netscape (Web
Explorer for IBM), and Microsoft Word.
Environment
It is important to understand the context and limitations of the
Dueling Windows environment with respect to GUI screen readers. In
so doing, the reader can better establish where more inquiry may be
appropriate, as well as where, and when, GUI screen readers can
directly address the user's needs.
Generally speaking, the fifteen questions from the Dueling Windows
panel posed common, direct tasks for the vendors to perform. The
reader can determine the general state of GUI affairs through the
entire seminar, but there are several cases in which the reader
cannot determine the cause of a certain result. In several cases,
vendors' systems crashed, and they were obligated to re-boot their
systems; in some cases, it was not possible to determine exactly
what the cause of the crash was. It is important to acknowledge
that there are numerous ways to program in Windows for a desired
result, and, consequently, there are inherent problems with the way
Windows applications have been programmed. Since it is SAF's
belief that most beginner users do not know how to configure the
speech parameters or profiles for various Windows environments, it
was also difficult to determine whether a GUI screen reader could
not access something on the screen, or whether this problem could
have been solved by altering the speech configuration; in short,
there are minor and major obstacles, and Dueling Windows could not
afford the vendors the time to really address this other than to
allow them to verbally state whether they could, or could not,
perform a task. Naturally, the ease with which a user can access
their application or configure their speech software is important,
even critical, but this detail could not be discussed because of
time constraints as well.
Though the general approach and philosophy of each vendor became
increasingly apparent as the seminar passed, the more subtle
distinctions of each vendor's approach could not be related through
the Dueling Windows context. None of this is to say that the
seminar should, or could, have been planned differently. It is
simply necessary to understand that any competitive context for any
product is sometimes misleading in only reviewing the statistical
results. The seminar was well-planned, well-organized, and
extremely thoughtful and reasonable in its approach and inquiry.
Results
The following results are displayed in a similar fashion as did the
Dueling Windows panel. There were three categories of scoring; the
vendor either achieved the task, achieved the task with difficulty,
or failed to perform the task. For the purpose of our review of
the seven vendors, "achieved task" means that the vendor was able
to achieve the task with good efficacy and few keystrokes;
"achieved task with difficulty" means that the vendor had to try
repeatedly, the task required an inordinate number of keystrokes or
searching, or multiple modes or cursors were required to achieve a
task that was simpler in design than performing it; "failed task"
simply means that the task was not accomplished.
The panel rotated through the vendors so that no single vendor
could always have the benefit of his predecessor's insight; the
results here shall be by vendor in alphabetical order and will
include additional comment for clarification. A comment "none" can
mean just that, or it can mean that there was insufficient data to
determine the cause of the outcome. It should be noted that this
article is not to promote any single vendor, so it will concentrate
its comments on GUI screen reader's ability rather than their
failure. (More comment on the evolution of GUI screen readers will
be presented in the Summary section of this article.) Each of the
fifteen questions shall be presented, and followed with each
vendor's performance.
Note: The first 4 questions regard Microsoft Access, MS's
database.
1. Find and launch Microsoft Access.
WinVision: achieved task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: achieved task
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
Screen Reader/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: achieved task
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task
Comments: none
2. Using the file menu and dialog box, open the file called dwdb
from the \dwfiles directory.
WinVision: achieved task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: achieved task
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: achieved task
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task
Comments: none
3. Open the employee table in view, arrow down and tab into the
employee data, and demonstrate how to read the field data and field
title.
WinVision: failed task
Comments: Could not read either cell contents or header.
outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to invoke mouse cursor to read header.
Window-Eyes: failed task
Comments: Could not read either cell contents or header; very
verbose.
JFW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Read cell contents but had to enter mouse cursor mode
and search to read
header.
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: Screen Reader/2 was the only program that could read the
field and header without entering into an additional mode or review
mode, or having to press numerous keystrokes just to confirm the
header.
Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to re-boot.
SPW: failed task
Comments: none
4. Close the employee table window (CTRL+F4), and from the View
menu select Query (Alt+V, Q). Now select the DWquery, and in two
separate dialog boxes you will be prompted to enter data . In the
first you will be asked to enter a position. In the second you
will be asked to enter a country. Demonstrate your program's
ability to find and read the appropriate prompts. (Editor's note:
the prompt here is located on the line above the entry field.)
WinVision: failed task
Comments: Could not re-read edit fields.
outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Could read dialogue box, but did not speak automatically
and needed to
enter mouse cursor mode to re-read the field.
Window-Eyes: failed task
Comments: Very verbose; could not re-read edit field.
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Read fields, but did not speak automatically.
Window Bridge: failed task
Comments: none
SPW: failed task
Comments: none
Note: The following questions refer to operations in Excel,
Microsoft's spread sheet.
5. Load MS-Excel and, from the file menu, select "open". Using
the dialog box, open a file called invoice.xls from the \dwfile
directory. (Note: MS-Excel is an example of how Microsoft does
not necessarily maintain its programming conventions; this presents
an obstacle for GUI speech developers.)
WinVision: achieved task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: failed task
Comments: Had to re-boot and could not open file.
Window-Eyes: n/a
Comments: GW Micro declined to demonstrate their program in
MS-Excel at this
time, but would be working on access to it in the future.
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: failed task
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to re-boot.
6. Have the speech announce the cell pointer location.
WinVision: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Could not easily speak coordinates.
outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Could not easily speak coordinates; used review mode.
Window-Eyes: n/a
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: Used INS-C macro.
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: failed task
Comments: Could not read because of font type.
SPW: achieved task
Comments: none
7. Read the text in cells A1 to A6.
WinVision: failed task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: n/a
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: failed task
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task
Comments: none
8. Go to cell F22. Enter the 4-digit number provided by the
panel; this number is too big for the cell. How does your program
let you know this?
WinVision: failed task
Comments: Could not read cell contents or overflow.
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: Had to read line instead of cell contents and overflow.
Window-Eyes: n/a
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: failed task
Comments: Could not read overflow.
SPW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: none
Note: The next section regards the World Wide Web (WWW) browser,
Netscape; IBM used their own WWW access, Web Explorer.
9. Load the web browser; Get the URL of the current sample web
site.
WinVision: achieved task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: achieved task
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: achieved task
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task
Comments: none
10. When on-line and going to a new location, many times the new
web page takes some time to load. How do you determine when the
entire page has been received or downloaded?
WinVision: achieved task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: achieved task
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: SR/2 has a sound feature that indicates if a download is
still in progress.
Window Bridge: achieved task
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: none
11. As you move up and down through the web page, how do you
determine when you are at the top or bottom? Demonstrate this by
finding the bottom of the current page.
WinVision: achieved task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: achieved task
Comments: none
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: none
12. Find and move to the link on the screen. Now, click the "Let
the Internet duel begin" link.
WinVision: achieved task
Comments: none
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: failed task
Comments: Found link but could not select as the cursor was not on
the link.
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: none
SPW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had trouble distinguishing between hypertext link and
standard text.
13. If a link is not visible on the current page, can your program
find it on other pages without going to those pages?
Note: This question was deemed invalid since sighted users would
not be using Windows in this fashion. Though not discussed at the
seminar, a link Goto/locator might give blind users an advantage
over their sighted colleagues.
14. Perform the following seven-step process to get to a specific
page:
Click on the netsuite products link;
Page down twice;
Click on the WebWhacker link;
Page down three times;
Click on the Windows 3.1 v1.0 link;
Page down once;
Click on the download link.
You are now at a form. Please fill in the last name and first name
fields.
WinVision: failed task
Comments: Could not find entry field.
outSPOKEN: achieved task
Comments: none
Window-Eyes: failed task
Comments: Could not get mouse pointer in edit box for data input.
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: achieved task
Comments: none
SPW: failed task
Comments: Could not get mouse pointer in edit box for data input.
15. When online in a newspaper with multiple columns, read a
single column.
WinVision: failed task
Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read.
outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Was the only program that could read newspaper columns,
but with many
keystrokes and some column defining.
Window-Eyes: failed task
Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read.
JFW: failed task
Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read.
SR/2: failed task
Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read.
Window Bridge: failed task
Comments: Could not establish single-column window to read.
SPW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Could not establish single-column with speech, but could
use braille
display to differentiate between columns.
16. Start MS-Word. From the file menu open a file called dw.doc
from the \dwfiles directory. From the tool menu, select
spellcheck. Using the tab key, now demonstrate your program's
ability to read the items in this dialog box.
WinVision: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell
misspelled or optional
words.
outSPOKEN: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell
misspelled or optional
words.
Window-Eyes: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell
misspelled or optional
words.
JFW: achieved task
Comments: none
SR/2: achieved task
Comments: none
Window Bridge: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell
misspelled or optional
words.
SPW: achieved task with difficulty
Comments: Had to tab to short keys to read them; did not spell
misspelled or optional
words.
Summary and Commentary
We gleaned a few conclusions from Dueling Windows. It showed that
we have come a long way in GUI screen reader development since only
a few, short years ago when access to GUI appeared a dismal
prospect. Dueling Windows further showed, however, that we have a
long way to go in GUI screen reader development. Few tasks, by any
vendor, could be easily performed with a single keystroke or short
series of keystrokes; though certain individual tasks could be
performed relatively easily, access to an entire process or series
of tasks seemed burdensome and never completely straight-forward.
The seminar brought to light some important points to consider
regarding this.
DOS was not accessible in its early state, and is often still
inaccessible. Access to Windows, however, is occurring at an
earlier stage in Windows development than did access in DOS's
development. Also, if certain programming conventions are upheld
in Windows, Windows may become much more predictable and workable
than DOS did; remember that GUI access is in its fledgling state
and will become much more sophisticated. One key issue for access
to Windows is the need, or lack thereof, to build one's own speech
configurations or profiles. If an access program works well with
a strict, conventional set-up of an application program, but fails
to easily be configured for a slight variation of the original
application program, this is obviously not desirable. Also, key
issues for GUI screen reader users are the ability to re-read text
and fields that have been spoken once as a window opens, and the
ability to spell words in any area of the screen where they are
only spoken in context.
Since Windows is somewhat predictable and generally constant in its
presentation, and, since certain Windows application programs have
become more conventional than others, it is not unreasonable to
assume that the differences between access programs will become
more philosophy-based, rather than task-based. The conventions of
Windows, or domination of Microsoft, essentially requires all GUI
screen readers to eventually have full and complete access to these
programs. The distinctions are likely to appear in the interface
where more or less transparency is desired, etc.
Lastly, Dueling Windows may be providing a marketing aspect that
could benefit the users. Though certainly not all-encompassing, it
injects a competitiveness into the screen reader market that might
not otherwise be there. Much product development for the blind has
suffered as a result of a lack of competition, so the user may
benefit from this current surge in GUI access competitiveness. The
only danger with this added competitiveness is if the small pool of
developers and vendors in this market lose respect for another's
product, or cease to work with other developers. Judging from the
March CSUN event, this is certainly not the case yet, and SAF looks
forward to the next Dueling Windows.
Post Scriptum:
SAF welcomes any or all of the GUI screen reader vendors to respond
to any misrepresentations or errors this article may infer
regarding their product.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Westerland via Talk
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 3:04 PM
To: Sky Mundell via Talk
Cc: Ian Westerland
Subject: Re: contacting Doug.
Hello everyone. I am still using Window-Eyes and the various Android
apps in my smart phone but I think the 4 B's might apply here to FS,
Jaws and screen reading access generally.
What are the 4 B's?
Big, Bigger, Biggest, Bust.
In the longr term, some good will come of it all depending on who thinks
about what is behind the need for top quality Screen reading access.
There are some good things around.
Just some thoughts I've had as I have observed and participated in some
of this Accessibility change and development.
Ian Westerland
On 8/19/2017 7:24 AM, Sky Mundell via Talk wrote:
> FS is getting desperate to hang onto their market at any cost. With JAWS
> having a monopoly in the paid market now, the price of JAWS might go up.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Talk [mailto:talk-boun...@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of
Reeva
> Webb via Talk
> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:42 AM
> To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
> Cc: Reeva Webb
> Subject: RE: contacting Doug.
>
> You can tell fs starting to get desperate. Fs 10 or 15 years ago
wouldn't
> have given you discounts on anything. For most the out of the box
> accessibility, android, apple etc. will work for what they need to do.
I'm
> curious though, is anyone from gw or pre merger ai2 still around.?
> Everyone i can think of seems to be gone.
>
> "the world has been against you from day one, tomorrow's never promised
> night has just begun, so sing with me we're all fucked" Walls Of Jericho
>
> Reeva
>
> On Aug 17, 2017 1:00 PM, "Joseph Norton via Talk" <
> talk@lists.window-eyes.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah, I think I see where you’re going with this.
>>
>> Are you saying things may be getting to a point where the cost of
>> maintaining JAWS is greater than anyone wants to pay in terms of
>> keeping the company going?
>>
>> I know it’s not because of Narrator being a superior product on the
>> Windows side. It is improving, but, not enough for many of us to get
>> rid of JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Olusegun -- Victory Associates LTD, Inc. via Talk
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:02 PM
>> To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'; 'Dennis Long'
>> Subject: RE: contacting Doug.
>>
>> Well, Michael, I once opined that the war Freedom Scientific could not
>> win in the courts, was well fought and won outside; with its cohorts
>> and coterie of friends, it succeeded in drowning the boat!
>>
>> The merger with AI Square came to me as a surprise; I didn't want to
>> see it happen, but what voice do I have?
>>
>> I long for the day when all these adaptive equipment
>> developers/manufacturers can TRADE THEIR STOCKS publicly; may be, just
>> may be, they'll have better stability! Now, we keep our eyes on the
>> sparrow, Jaws may be taking its last breath as the venture capitalists
>> will soon squash its fins! Then it'll be Apple and Google to fill the
>> void at least here in the United States!
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Olusegun
>> Denver, Colorado
>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
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