Hi everyone, Further to my recent post which I quote below, I learned a hot key which gave me access to certain controls on my grocery website which, up to now, I could only access using my Windows 10 machine; therefore, while it was a guess that there was something inherently superior about the accessibility framework within Windows, my recent experience has rekindled my hope that perhaps I can trust my Mac to allow me to access all of the web resources I need after all. Without going into too much detail, suffice it to say that web designers love to use pop-up dialog boxes on their pages, and I didn't realize that VoiceOver on the Mac has a special hot key which allows such a dialog to be accessed; for anyone using a Mac, and who might need it, this hot key is Ctrl-Option-Shift-End; I had been using Ctrl-Option-End, and had assumed that the controls I was looking for were at the bottom of the page, as, indeed, they were in Firefox on Windows. However, being a relative novice to the Mac, I am still learning, as, indeed, am I continually challenged by the often arbitrary decisions of web developers in designing their pages. At this point, then, I cannot honestly say whether, in the long run, I will say that Mac or Windows will prove to be the best tool for accessing the web, but I did buy a Mac with the intention of abandoning Windows if I could, and, today, this seems like a good bet.
I just wanted to point to a couple of issues which might challenge anyone coming to the Mac from Windows. One is the need to learn a great number of hot keys, not just for the VoiceOver screen reader, but for the operating system as well, and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason behind their choice by the software developers. Perhaps the greatest challenge, however, is the fact that Windows users have been spoiled by the continual presence of a focused cursor where we can interact with the interface immediately, and our screen reader can quickly query the cursor status. This is not true in the Mac OS, since, as with IOS, the user must first review the screen to find a control, and then press the Interact hot key in order to work with it. Personally, I can still more quicly edit text on Windows than on my Mac or my IOS devices. I'm getting better, but over 30 years doing this on Windows is a long time to be spoiled doing it the easy way. No doubt I'll get better over time, but it still seems like a chore on my Apple devices. Clearly, I will put the time and effort necessary to become proficient on my Mac because I want the benefits associated with switching to the Mac, namely, a sleek and elegant computer with a builtin screen reader, built by a company with a reputation for producing high quality and digitally secure hardware and software. Incidentally, I find it interesting that the newest incarnations of Narrator on Windows 10 have a Scan mode, where the user can review the entire screen, and, once the user finds a control to work with, the Scan mode can be exited, and the control worked with. Obviously, the Microsoft developers see the advantage of the Apple screen review system. In truth, access technologies are becoming more uniform, and so, in a way, it really doesn't matter which device you purchase, since you need not spend extra money for adaptive technology. I also wanted to highlight a point raised by David on the issue of updates within the Mac operating system. I believe Macs used to have the reputation of infrequent updates; perhaps this is true of the core operating system. However, more recently, and, indeed, since I've had a Mac, I've seen a bit of a flurry of updates, especially to negate some security vulnerabilities which have surfaced, and some pretty dumb oversights that made Apple look stupid too. However, in addition, since I have Office 365 installed on my Mac, I'm noticing Microsoft updating Outlook and OneDrive almost weekly, in a attempt to deal with security issues, yes, but also in order to roll out accessibility improvements to their software, This does point to Microsoft's commitment to ongoing accessibility evolution, and so Apple users are benefiting from this commitment as much as are Windows users. And, indeed, when one sees the ongoing improvement to the Seeing AI app in IOS as well, the link between Micro soft and Apple seems pretty tight. Well, I will end here for now, and no doubt I'll write more as I find things worth sharing. All the best, Rod Sent from Outlook 2010 for Windows -----Original Message----- From: Rod Hutton Sent: Friday, May 25, 2018 10:46 AM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Subject: RE: Has anyone ever considered using the Apple Mac? Hi Paulette, You'll probably remember me, Rod Hutton, from Canada. I called you some time back, when you needed some insight into podcast software for your iPhone. I can certainly call you again, but I can write a bit about my experience with this crazy world of computers since we talked last, and this will help anyone on the list as well. I bought a Macbook Pro with Touchbar last summer. It's pretty much the best laptop Apple has made, and it is up to date, with the current version of macOS, the operating system for the Mac. Therefore, it has the current web browser, Safari. My reason for going into the Mac world was partly for the reason you want to, to have a machine with a built-in screen reader so that I wouldn't have to spend time and money and trouble just to have an accessible computer. My other reason was that I was always very envious of Mac users who seemed to have a lot less trouble than us poor Windows slaves. Anyway, being a pretty savvy PC user, and figuring we could finance what is a pretty expensive machine, my wife and I, being both blind, figured we'd just go for it. We also had heard quite a few podcasts by the famous blind Australian podcaster and Apple ambassador, David Woodbridge, and, if you ever heard his confident and savvy performance on his podcasts, you'll know why we kind of got sucked deeper and deeper into the Apple world. Incidentally, he has every Apple device going, and he uses them all. Through him, I have gotten very competent with my Apple products as well, including the iPhone, the Apple Watch, and the Mac. My other and more curucial reason for moving deeper into the Apple world was the decision VFO made to stop developing Window-Eyes. It seemed to me that I needed to diversify my accessibility toolbox, and it made sense to move closer to a company which built accessibility tools into each and every device they sell. On reflection, I suppose it was my long experience with Windows computers which influenced me to buy the equivalent device in the Apple world, namely, a Mac computer. Well, it has a screen and a keyboard, and so why wouldn't I just go that route? Having used the Mac since I bought it last summer, while I can say that I have really come to respect and enjoy the beautiful design of the hardware and operating system of the Mac, I can also say that I have continued my use of the iPhone with an Apple Magic Bluetooth keyboard, and there are a lot of similarities when using these two Apple devices. For all of us, these days, whether we like it or not, our survival is increasingly dependent on online services. Therefore, to remain independent, we are forced to deal with interfaces, whether they are web browsers or apps, and, indeed, these little apps are often just web browsers in disguise, and so wether we can accomplish our tasks depends on the accessibility of these interfaces. What I have learned is that I am using all of my devices in order to get my work done, and it is usually in the following order: First, I use my Windows 10 PC running Window-Eyes and Firefox, that is, the Extended Service Release version of Firefox. When Window-Eyes fails to detect certain Firefox web page controls effectively, I unload Window-Eyes and load NVDA, and, once I pass the hurdle in my way, I unload it and switch back to Window-Eyes. Note that this is my experience with my most important web task, namely, online grocery shopping, and so, if I fail here, I don't eat. The next most important online task for me is banking, and, very recently, I have come to see that the easiest way to do this is using my iPhone, and this is because the app is a stripped-down version of a web browser, and containing only the most basic controls necessary to review and perform transactions, I can bank in a flash. Then again, if I want to highlight the pleasure aspect of web browsing, I must say that Safari on the Mac is the most fun, and this is because, once you understand the web rotor, you can breeze through web page elements using arrow keys alone. Although I could, no doubt, go on and on, I should boil things down a bit, and say, for me, I will probably always find it necessary to have a Windows machine running NVDA, as well as some mobile device such as a cell phone or tablet. This is pretty much common sense today, since these two platforms will persist into the future. My experience is that a Windows browser is the only one which consistently reveals all of the controls on my grocery and banking websites, and so, it is the only one which I can trust for now. This is a pretty important factor, tipping the scale for me to stay with Windows. However, I await the day when I see equivalent performance on my Mac and my iPhone. I do believe that there is something unique about the accessibility framework within Windows which makes this possible, something about how browse mode works, and so I have to call a spade a spade. Well, Paulette, this is enough for now, and, as I said, I can talk with you on the phone if you wish. Take care for now, Rod Sent from Outlook 2010 for Windows -----Original Message----- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail....@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Paulette Vickery via Talk Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 3:34 PM To: 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Cc: Paulette Vickery Subject: Has anyone ever considered using the Apple Mac? Hi all, I don't know about you, but I am just getting tired of it and want a complete change. I am tired of having to change screen readers every so often. I am tired of continually having to learn new and so called improved Windows programs and Windows updates. I am tired of wondering, worrying and waiting for the next change and inevitable scramble to keep up by the blind in the computer world. So now, I am considering taking a leap of what ever you care to call it and try using an Apple laptop, specifically, the Mac Book Air. I know there is a steep learning curve, but I must say that there is a lot of support available. For example, every Apple store is supposed to have on site training on all Apple devices for people with disabilities, including blind people. I know that the store here in Louisville has such training. The Apple Care for people with disabilities is available over the phone 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is more than there regular Apple Care. The Apple Mac has a built in screen reader with different voices at no extra cost installed on each device they make. There is also a short tutorial for how to use Voice Over, the Apple voice and it's software, also at no extra cost, included on each device. I know that it has nothing to do with how it works, but the outer case of the laptop is metal and has an apple, complete with 2 leaves and a bite taken from the apple, as the logo which I can touch easily. Has anyone else thought about using, or has used an Apple mac laptop? If so what did or do you think about the Mac? Thanks in advance for your thoughts. 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