Hey Frederik
Really good questions.
First off, I don't necessarily see this as an American - European thing ..
there are plenty of people with different approaches to communication
everywhere.
What does guide me is experience communicating online, in text, with people
from a variety of backgrounds. It is *very* easy to misunderstand intent
online. It is *very* easy to have an limbic reaction to something we read
online. (There is in fact a lot introspection right now about the effect of
this dynamic on democracy as a whole). When I feel it's necessary, I go out of
my way to not only share my issue, or what I want to happen, but also my
thought process getting there, and my understanding of other points of view.
The start of this thread began in the context trademark policy. I don't mean to
get into a discussion about the details of trademark policy, though that is an
important topic. Starting off discussion of the Tasking Manager in this way
feels pretty aggressive. As HOT, and very importantly the individuals who
participate in HOT, are well known in the OSM community, you can assume they
are on this mailing list, are open to discussion, and want to make things
better.
In fact, I totally agree with Christoph that the new Tasking Manager needs to
improve how it communicates about OSM, and there have been some constructive
suggestions in the thread. I think posting on talk@ is one fine way to open
that discussion. He could also have contacted HOT people directly, posted on
the hot@ list, opened GitHub issues. The point is, HOT is not a faceless,
unresponsive entity, but people you run across every day in OSM, with whom you
can discuss things, and work together constructively.
So here's maybe a turn at rephrasing the original email.
> Subject: How can we better talk about OSM on the new Tasking Manager?>> I
> recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
> (http://tasks.hotosm.org/)> and found the page is now presenting itself as
> the "OpenStreetMap Collaborative > Mapping" portal with no indication
> except for the small logo on top that this is one of> many projects in the
> OpenStreetMap community.>> At the same time it seems (at a first glance) I
> could not find any links on the site> to OpenStreetMap. >
> To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
> impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
> Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
>> From past discussions on this topic, I figure HOT does not want to give
>> this> impression. Here are some ways I think the tasking manager and it's
>> relationship> to OSM could be better communicated.
Hope this helps clear this up.
Thanks-Mikel
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
On Monday, October 23, 2017, 11:24:33 AM MDT, Frederik Ramm
<frede...@remote.org> wrote:
Hi,
On 10/23/2017 05:06 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
> On Oct 23, 2017 08:59, "Mikel Maron" <mikel.ma...@gmail.com
> <mailto:mikel.ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> However ... I hope we can also agree that it is counter productive
> to start off such discussions in such an argumentative pose. I hear
> a lot of distrust in phrases like "misrepresentation", "claiming
> ownership", "exactly what HOT doesn't do". It's emotionally draining
> for me to read things like this, and I don't think I'm alone. There
> is always more we can learn from each other, about what to do and
> how to do it. We are all here in OpenStreetMap because we love the
> map. Can we please use that as a starting point in our interactions,
> and focus on helping each other to make the map together?
>
>
> Yes, thanks for bringing this up Mikel. Combative questions and the
> assumption that the other party is trying to attack OSM makes threads
> like this extremely difficult to participate in. People interested in
> having a conversation about OSM avoid the mailing lists because of
> threads like this and it hurts our community.
I find it tiring to read these "see that's why nobody does mailing lists
any more" tirades, and it is very difficult for me to separate criticism
of the style in which something is written, from criticism of the actual
message. I feel that there's too much language policing going on, and
too little respect for cultural diversity. Christoph is, like me, from
Europe, and those of you who are quick to cast him (or "threads like
this") off as harmful to the community, seem to be from the USA. Is it
possible that we simply have different ways to express things? Can civil
conversations about OSM only be had by US citizens and those who swallow
their values, and everyone else is a problem? Or do we have the same set
of values but somehow this project manages to attract the more polite
among the North Americans, and the ill-bred of the Europeans?
Now let's try to be constructive about this and see how we can make it
better. Ian and Mikel; try for a second to put yourself in Christophs's
shoes. Assume you're a member of the OSM community, and you come across
a web site by a third party that you know but are not involved in, let's
say a web site by a charity called "Reporters without Borders".
Say you open their web page and are greeted with a banner that says
"OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" and a button "Start Mapping", and
a series of Reporters without Borders projects that you can participate
in. They talk about how they partner with other organisations or people
on the ground but don't mention the fact that OpenStreetMap was about
collaborative mapping even before "Reporters without Borders" came along
at all.
Say that - even though you're normally calm and not easily offended -
you're now slightly hurt that here's a charity building something on top
of the project that you are spending half of your spare time, and they
seem to be making it sound as if it was them who have invented
collaborative mapping.
Say that - even though your first impulse might be to do more research
or ask friends on a private communications platform of your choice about
this - you decide to make your fellow OpenStreetMappers aware of this
perceived problem, on the mailing list.
How would you go about it? What would you write? How would you
communicate to your fellow OpenStreetMappers that you feel wronged by
this charity, while at the same time not offending or emotionally
draining those among your fellow OpenStreetMappers who are involved with
that same charity?
The reason you want to share this with your peers is that this sharing
will reduce your hurt; others will (you hope) either say "yep, you are
right to feel offended, they need to change that", or they will say "ah,
it's not so bad, everyone does it anyway" which, while perhaps not as
satisfying, will also help to settle the matter for you. You cannot be
expected to send a quiet email to the makers of the page instead; you
have a right to share joy *and* pain with your fellow mappers on the
mailing list. That's the very core of social, of community.
What would be *your* words to say "Hey everybody, I saw this, and I
think it is bad and needs to change"? What choice of language would
adequately express your being upset about what you have seen, without
being denounced as a poisonous person who harms the community by seeking
support from it?
This is a honest question; I would really be interested in the, if I
may, "American version" of what Christoph has written. One that does
express how you're upset while at the same time *not* being "combative"
and all those bad things you said about Christoph's post.
Maybe then I can use that to express myself in a more internationally
compatible way in the future ;)
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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