Tom wrote: >>>> The "RULE CROSS" (aka after two steps outside...) functions for beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to learn than feeling for what signals the cross...A far better instruction for beginners is to teach lead for the cross using a diagonal shift of the axis, which enables the "in-line" cross and very subtle "right-side crosses" as well as, leading the "not-cross". A new beginner has the precision to lead and not lead crosses with great subtlety. <<<< Agreed - it seems to me the RULE CROSS you describe is from an earlier, simpler time in tango pedagogy - you and I know that both of us were trained that way in the beginning ;)
>>>> I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the axis. <<< Agreed again - seems to require lots of untraining. >>>> Comparing the "RULE CROSS" with the "FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS", I find that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE- LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow. Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE- LEAD is mental and analytical. <<<< I'd say it takes beginners far less time to learn the "rule cross" than 30-40 minutes in our experience - probably about the same as the "axis lead", as you call it - but it's still to be avoided. We make our beginning followers aware of it as something they may experience with leaders who have been trained that way, and we sort of apologize in advance for the disconnected feeling they'll most likely experience at that moment from those leaders, who often sort of expect the follower to just "do their job" by going to the cross with no more communication from the leader than taking up a certain body position. I agree too about the difference in mental activity - the "RULE-LEAD" is to me like sailing a big boat (press here, pull that, this will happen) while the other (an example of "space-leading" in our nomenclature) is more like windsurfing or skiing, involving full-body awareness, more visceral and subrational. For us leading the cruzada in this way is part of a general goal, to promote the "feeling" of connection as a single body moving through space, at the perception level, in BOTH leader and follower. >>>> Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a beginner... <<<< We were very fortunate to have, as part of Gustavo & Giselle's visit here, the opportunity to see how Gustavo would actually share his teaching expertise with brand-new tango dancers. Given that he's been doing this for a quarter-century for countless thousands of beginners, I was very interested to see what choices he'd make. Rather than invoking the giro, he instead told a very charming little "tango fable" about the origins of the dance ("seventy years, maybe one hundred years ago, maybe three hundred years before Christ, the following thing happened at a party somewhere, when someone put on some music, and a couple started to move together...") In this fable, the cross arose as a response to a follower's attempt to reconnect with her leader after the leader suddenly did a front cross toward the open side of the embrace to avoid an obstacle. I should mention that from a pedagogical point of view, the whole fable was designed to show the origins of common things in the tango, not necessarily the way to "lead" them now. Incidentally, he had everyone START with an embrace that was intimate enough for the man's right hand to reach around and be underneath his partner's right arm...justified because, as he said, "we LIKE this situation! She knows I want to be with her! If I don't hold her like this, in this situation, maybe soon she doesn't want to be with ME!" So much for "Nuevo Tango" and "Open Embrace"... ;) All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart 775 Pleasant Street Boulder, CO 80302 USA 303-938-0716 www.danceoftheheart.com “Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time” -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Stermitz Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:51 AM To: Tango-L Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything,be discouraged? People keep talking at cross-purposes, but Laurie's coments below point out that things are different for different people, different situations, different levels and different styles. What is necessary for a beginner is insufficient for an intermediate, and doesn't makes sense for an advanced. Most teachers tend to analyze things teach at THEIR level rather than teaching in layers appropriate for the different levels. And, judging from this list, tango teachers are an analytical, over-educated, over- verbal bunchh RULE-LEAD vs AXIS-LEAD CROSS The "RULE CROSS" (aka after two steps outside...) functions for beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to learn than feeling for what signals the cross. For more experienced people the "RULE" applies in the sense that it is such a common move, she just comes to expect the cross whenever he goes outside. Therefore, the not-cross becomes a critical lead. AXIS: A far better instruction for beginners is to teach lead for the cross using a diagonal shift of the axis, which enables the "in-line" cross and very subtle "right-side crosses" as well as, leading the "not- cross". A new beginner has the precision to lead and not lead crosses with great subtlety. SPIRAL: I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the axis. For me, the spiral is how the man FOLLOWS the cross, not leads it. This is a very luscious connection that feels very connected. However it is an adv-beginner or intermediate skill. Comparing the "RULE CROSS" with the "FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS", I find that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE- LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow. Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE- LEAD is mental and analytical. I do everything possible to keep people moving, in their physical bodies, and not thinking too much. I'm in the school of "Lead the cross; Lead the not-cross". This has the advantage that the ladies are taught to wait on the cusp of the decision, so the lead-follow can be more subtle. As followers get better, NUEVO ANALYSIS Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a beginner. They can hardly stand up, let alone learn ochos, and the giro has to come after ochos. In any case, depending on the situation, the giro is frequently distorted, (the cross is sort of a front ocho, theoretically) so only the curious really care whether the cross is part of the giro, a structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers? On Aug 26, 2007, at 2:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ...In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should > never cross > > automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically > (unless > > she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she > > wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice). > > > ... On every step, the lady will have no idea what > > is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is > commonly > > only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait. > > > ...Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless > otherwise led) > > and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more > conversational > > and communicative possibilities. I’d happily discuss on another > occasion the > > many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present, > but I have > > rabbited on long enough for one posting. > > Laurie (Laurence) > > 24 August 2007 > _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l _______________________________________________ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l