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From: Paul Cantrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri 12-8-2005 17:49 To: Tapestry users Subject: Re: Back to Tapestry after an Year Begging your pardon, but Hibernate is no nightmare. -------------------------- You didn`t get my point. Hibernate is a nice tool, but it can be very difficult to set up right and I`m speaking of personal experience. Especially atached-detached entities/open session in view/transactional complexity/statefull pages can make it quite difficult to come to something usefull. We were seriously thinking about dropping Hibernate for something else that doesn`t have so much risks. We finally found a good solution to all out problems and now I`m happy with Hibernate again. But Hibernate powerfull features create a lot of risks and the question is if you want to pay the price of these risks and don`t use and care about those features. We shouldn't start a HIbernate discussion on this list -- take your questions to the Hibernate lists ------------------------------ The hibernate forum is quite useless. I never find answers there. I post questions on the Spring forum about hibernate and finally get my questions answered. And there are a lot of problems that exist just because of Tapestry (and other statefull page based webframeworks). So I don`t think this isn`t a good forum to ask the questions. , but I just wanted to counteract the fear factor of a message like this. I've used it on four projects ranging from small to *massive*, and it worked very nicely on all four. We never ran into "session nightmares," and multiple clicks on submit buttons are web framework issues, not OR issues! --------------------------------- Well... maybe not everyone is as experienced as you are. Concurrency control generally is considered as very complicated. I do a lot of (complex) concurrency control and it doesn`t feel half as complex as Hibernate. Hibernate can be a great risk to everyone that doesn`t have the resources to get there questions answered. I don`t say Hibernate is a bad tool (if it is up and running, it`s like a dream) but to get to a fase you know what is going on, and can reason about it, can take time. The question is if you have that time and if you have someone that can take the risks away. If not I (now) would seriously rethink about using Hibernate. Note also that in Tapestry, if you're using Java 1.5, you don't need .page files at all. The code that comes out of 4.0 (when properly used) is incredibly concise. ----------------------------- I have seen the annotation support. I have tried Tapestry on one project and it was a hell of a lot better than our previous webframework. But it still is complex. I don`t have much problems with this complexity, but there are a lot of teams where not every programmer has the time to deal with this complexity, especially if there are simpeler alternatives. I don`t say Tapestry is bad (Tapestry has its reasons why they do the things they do) but try to explain it to a project manager and to other programmers that don`t care about it. > I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but if you don't already > have > an investment in Hibernate, you might want to consider using Cayenne > with your Tapestry application for database persistence. Cayenne > doesn't seem to include the "nightmare" problems with sessions and > multiple clicks on submit buttons that I see on this list all the > time. > Stick a Cayenne DataContext in your Tapestry Visit and things work > pretty well. Cayenne is also quite featureful and under active > development. > > > /dev/mrg > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Veentjer - Anchor Men [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 3:29 AM > To: Tapestry users; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Back to Tapestry after an Year > > > We had the same problem. Personally I don`t have much problems with > the > complexity of Tapestry, but I can`t speak for the whole team. That is > why we are going to use Wicket (99% chance). Tapestry and Wicket look > the same (on the surface) and the both have a lot of the same options > but wicket is a lot cleaner (no more page file and no more > extracting/inserting content in pages). I think Tapestry is getting a > littlebit bloated/draging along to much garbage. > > If Tapestry could start over, I would love to see what they could make > of it. > > BTW: > Hibernate can be a nightmare. It is difficult to get the session > problems right. We have been discussing various session strategies for > more than a month, and finally came up with something usefull. The > biggest problems with sessions are the many ways you can deal with > them, > and that it is difficult to find others with similar problems. We are > glad it works and I`m glad I can reason about what is going on. > > And if you throw Spring next to Hibernate/Tapestry(or Wicket) you > have a > nice combination. Hibernate for the or-mapping. Tapestry for the > visual > aspect, and Spring glueing everything together. > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Varun Mehta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Verzonden: vrijdag 12 augustus 2005 9:07 > Aan: [email protected] > Onderwerp: Back to Tapestry after an Year > > Hi Fellas, > > I had studied Tapestry 3.0 beta, somewhere in > Jan-Feb 2004, but could not go ahead and implement > the same, as the learning curve for the team was a > bit too high, and settled on for the Petstore > application. Now I back in the same boat where I > need to get back to a framework. The debate is b/w > Struts - Webworks - Tapestry. I personally vouch for > Tapestry cos it's cleaner for the HTML guys in the > long run. Struts is something I want to avoid. > > I don't recall much of Tapestry. I was going through > some sites and found the betterpetshop application > based on Tapestry at > https://betterpetshop.dev.java.net/, also at the > same time found some criticizm on the project, as in > it uses a lot of workarounds & does not implement > Tapestry properly. > > http://www.jroller.com/page/cardsharp/Weblog?catname=%2FJava > > Tapestry is all about stateful user interactions. > It's designed to let you work with objects instead > of request parameters. (This article assumes you > WANT to work with objects instead of IDs. Plenty > of Tapestry apps just throw ID's around to get > around the problems mentioned in this posting, > e.g. the Better Petshop project.) Hibernate is > also about state. It's about serializing object > state into a relational database. It's also very > good at working with "detached" objects. In other > words, you can load persistent objects in one > Hibernate session and reattach them during a later > session. You can even modify the object between > sessions. > > Can anybody help me with the issue. Also I need a > place where I can read an updated tutorial on the > framework and train the team fast on it. The book > 'Tapestry in Action' is already issued out to > someone else, so will take some time to be back in > the library, meanwhile I need to study and give a > presentation on 'WHY TAPESTRY'. The combination we > are looking for is Tapestry + Hibernate. > > What I've read and feel is Tapestry + Hibernate is > Rocket fuel. If you take care and use it properly, > you are in space, else a minor mistake and a mid-way > boom!!.. > > Please suggest. > > > Regards > Varun Mehta > - http://varun.cjb.net > - http://varuninfo.cjb.net > - http://varunmehta.cjb.net > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > imagination is more important than knowledge - albert einstein > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > _________________________________________________________________ "After hearing ten thousand explanations, a fool is no wiser. 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