-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I believe that some would share your views about tools and others would disagree vehemently. I, for one, have seen Spindle being a lifesaver for a new user, and have seen "tool support" be a reason for choosing or not a particular technology - regardless of how easy or robust the technology was behind it. Hence, I applaud and encourage every bit of "tooling" that can be worked on.
As I'm not directly involved in 'tooling' (yet), I will address what you state as "more important": You're 100% correct in this, too. The foundation should be rock-solid and have easy to grasp concepts and processes. I highly recommend any user to file an issue (improvement/bug/whatever - as long as it's appropriate) on any piece of Tapestry they find issue with - from the site itself through framework documentation down to code. Let's get them fixed. (will they all get fixed to everyone's satisfaction? probably not. "all" and "everyone" very seldom meet - but if it's not logged in Jira it WILL be overlooked unless it hits a dev's personal space. This isn't intentional, it's just human.) So how do my two views compare? Foundation is paramount, but there's nothing wrong with people working on custom siding or shutters while the foundation's being worked on. :-) Konstantin Ignatyev wrote: > I agree that tools are important and they contribute to > the success of a technology but they are very secondary ( sorry for > discouragement Hugo, Steve, Geoff and others). There are reasons why I think > tools are somehow secondary: > > PHP and Ruby â?? they do not even have tools like IDE which would > provide very important IMO features like: code completion, code navigation, > refactoring etc. Despite that PHP, Ruby, Python are very popular; > > VB and Delphi (PowerBuilder? - did not use it myself ) were GREAT visual > environments to work in, but they faded away; > > > > But I agree that success of a technology greatly depends on perceived > convenience: however the convenience does not come solely from UI and aid > tools, it should be embedded in a technology. > From this perspective I think it is more important to address inconveniences > at the root level rather try to address them via tools of any kind. > > > As such inconveniences I would list: not self evident method and interface > names â?? for example that init value in Tapestry: it is VERY > counterintuitive and hard to accept that page gets 'initialized' when > released back to pool. Although it makes sense from T internal perspective. > > > Another example is the thing ALL the Tapestry newbies hit: rewind and its > most noticeable effect: presence of absence expected values for listener > depending on place of 'submit' button on the form. > Again: that does makes sense from Tapestry perspective, but VERY unintuitive > and comes as a surprise . > > > > > Not that I want to discourage all the tool builders, I rather want us all to > keep in mind cornerstone things and try to improve foundation first. > > > > > Steve Motola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes, that JSF article was a bit > hilarious. Has anyone blogged about it? > > I know folks haven't heard from us (The Lab - http://www.thelabllc.com) for a > while, but we are trying to do just that with Cognition - have good > development > tools for Tapestry. Right now it is a little tied to Spring / Hibernate, but > we > are making some new project templates that will be much more stripped down > versions where you don't have to use Spring or Hibernate if you don't want > to. > We'd like to incorporate the following projects and functionality: Spindle, > Palette, Trails, Tacos, etc. > > We are trying to develop a roadmap where we can merge best of features with > Trails folk in the future and find $ to support Geoff and other Spindle > efforts. Not enough bandwidth with this and paid projects. We need some help > and I'm trying to convince business people that Tapestry is the way to go (as > we all are) - because we are not going to get there with developer power > alone. > > I truly believe we will have greater success and adoption with Tapestry as a > whole if we have some great tools for it and make it easier to use. We need > to > attract people that are not yet part of the clan, who don't have to be gurus. > > That is why Visual Basic caught on, and things like PHP and Ruby are > exploding. > Do most of us think these are all inferior technologies? Yes. But engineers > thought of C in the same light back in the day and it eventually won out. > There is no reason we can't make great architecture easy to use - Tapestry is > already a testament to that, but can go to the next level with some great > tools > that are up to date with the latest core code. > > Releases - we've made some improvements and added some cool features but have > been reticent to do another wide release yet. We are improving some of our > internal processes so we can have more releases and access to current trunk. > We released an update to the cognition-user dev list but will release > something > to the larger dev community by next week. > > Thanks all for your support - any ideas and involvement is appreciated. > > > Quoting Konstantin Ignatyev : > >> I am so tired of JSF crowd flip-flop on the subject of >> tooling. One moment they preach JSF as great technology because it allows >> tools, but when asked to name one JSF tool that really works and allows >> creating application in it in the same way Delphi and VB, they immediately >> flop and say that you do not really need any 'tool' to be productive with >> JSF.... >> >> >> As for IDE support for Tapestry: combination of DreamWeaver and >> IntelliJ-IDEA works very well for me in this scenario: >> >> entire look and feel (draft of course) for an application can be done in >> DW without writing single line of code; >> >> then the application mockup can be demoed to customer and modified >> immediately if necessary; >> >> >> >> The nice thing about this stage is that DW mockup demonstrates behavior of >> the application as well as its look, and all that without writing single line >> of code; >> >> >> Instrumenting and coding the application in Tapestry is then trivial. >> >> >> >> >> >> John Coleman wrote: yes, I agree, and there has >> been many mentions here, of a need for tools to >> crank out Tapestry apps' >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Geoff Hopson" >> To: "Tapestry users" >> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:40 AM >> Subject: Re: [OT] OMG! A dynamic div component in JSF >> >> >> The authro responds... >> >> http://www.it-eye.nl/weblog/2006/04/26/jsf-productivity/ >> >> >> >> On 25/04/06, Geoff Longman wrote: >>> in Tapestry: >>> >>> >>> >>> In JSF: >>> >>> http://www.it-eye.nl/weblog/2006/04/25/creating-a-jsf-div-component/ >>> >>> Yikes! >>> >>> Geoff >>> >>> -- >>> The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net >>> Blog: http://jroller.com/page/glongman >>> Other interests: http://www.squidoo.com/spaceelevator/ >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> >> Konstantin Ignatyev >> >> >> >> >> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million >> tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical >> rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to >> one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 >> tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000 >> >> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a >> Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State >> University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206) > > > ........................................ > > Steve Motola > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (310) 422-5521 > > The Lab, LLC > http://www.thelabllc.com > > Content is for intended recipient only. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Konstantin Ignatyev > > > > > PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million > tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical > rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to > one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 > tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000 > > Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a > Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State > University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (MingW32) iD8DBQFET64iaCoPKRow/gARAm7+AJ9qPFnic47KzP7SMMkqo6W0vHqgMgCfbHe+ zu1DwH7u73FnwD2he51EdFc= =P9yp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
