On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 02:13:02PM +0200, Guido Winkelmann wrote:
> >
> > It's also *far* more expensive. There is no reason to slow things down
> > here, and I don't see that it makes life harder for the client author.
> 
> Multiplexing done by TCP/IP is expensive? That's big news for me. Maybe you 
> should tell that the BitTorrent crowd and, oh, just about the rest of the 
> internet.

Connection tear-down and set-up is pretty expensive. This is why HTTP
uses keepalives. This is why HTTP-NG layer 0 was a multiplexing layer.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > So you are punishing the users for running fproxy, because you don't.
> 
> You are still clinging to the assumption that fproxy will stay the most 
> important application in Freenet for a long time to come. Personally, I am 
> convinced that it will be dwarved in importance by IRC-over-Freenet and/or 
> Messageboard-over-Freenet soon after good tools become available for that. (I 
> don't consider Frost to be a particularly good tool.)

Well, that's your opinion.
> 
> Note that the popularity of the WWW on the normal web is in no smll part due 
> to the ability to do server- and or client-side scripting, which is simply 
> not available in Freenet.

With 0.7 there will be ways to do most things you can do on the Real
Web.
> 
> > > > End-user code such as?
> > >
> > > Everything that actually does something for the user with the
> > > functionality provided by FCPv2. I'd classify enduser code (in this case)
> > > as "anything that is or could be implemented using FCP(v2)".
> >
> > Ahhh, okay. So:
> > - Fproxy is end-user code.
> > - The config servlet is end-user code. Even though the user needs to run
> >   it to configure bandwidth usage in a user-friendly way.
> > - Diagnostics are end-user code (you can get them from FCPv2).
> 
> The last two don't neatly fit into the scheme core code - enduser code. 
> They're a special case.
> 
> > - HTTP in general is end-user code.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > > Einstein once said that the trick with Occam's Razor (~= KISS) is not
> > > > to slit your own throat. Things should be as simple as possible - AND
> > > > NO SIMPLER.
> > >
> > > Alright - so we're arguing about where the point of "too simple" is.
> > >
> > > Oh, and if I got this correctly, the thing from Einstein was about
> > > something different. It was about educating the public about science's
> > > discoveries. If you're getting too complex in this case, the audience
> > > won't understand. If you're getting too simple, you're losing
> > > correctness.
> >
> > Really? I had always assumed he meant theories... Occam surely did...
> 
> As far as I know, it isn't even known for certain whether it really was 
> Einstein who said that. It doesn't matter much, though. There is wisdom in 
> this quote, so who cares who said it originally?
> 
> [...]
> 
>       Guido
-- 
Matthew J Toseland - toad at amphibian.dyndns.org
Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/
ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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