texascavers Digest 26 May 2014 00:13:13 -0000 Issue 1986
Topics (messages 23877 through 23889):
Deep Cave Survey Report - May 17, 2014
23877 by: Joe & Evelynn Mitchell
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Re: [azregion] Background on SWR FOIA
23878 by: Stephen Fleming
23884 by: Jim Evatt
Re: Deep Cave Report
23879 by: David
20 years ago - just reminiscing
23880 by: David
23881 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
23882 by: Jacqueline Thomas
23885 by: Carl Kunath
23887 by: Mimi Jasek
the future of cave mapping?
23883 by: vivbone.att.net
conference on cave biology
23886 by: Mixon Bill
Ringing stones
23888 by: Karen Perry
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
23889 by: Louise Power
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--- Begin Message ---
Saturday, May 17 was the 10th Deep Cave survey trip since the project resumed
in 2011. It was also Don Arburn's birthday and we were joined on this trip by
Jenni Arburn who baked cupcakes for everyone and Allan Cobb who was generous
enough to cook all of our meals for us. Thanks!
As with the previous trip in February, six teams were fielded in the cave.
Teams were scattered through the cave following up on leads and unfinished work
from previous trips.
Geary Schindel, Aaron Wertheim, and Vicky DeLeon, continued work on the Tourist
Route resurvey from the Hall of Masks up toward the Entrance Room. In the
process, they discovered a previously undocumented side passage off of the
Swiss Cheese Corridor and added it to the survey for 5 shots and a total of
19.9 m.
Don Arburn, Steve Gutting, and Gary Dunham continued to survey the lower part
of the Tourist Route survey through the Corkscrew to the Helictite Room. Though
difficult and with a lot of high angle shots, they surveyed 9 stations for 37.5
m, completing the route.
Marvin Miller, Gerry Geletske, and Chris Lafferty worked on Miller Time Room
leads. The started with a detailed check of the west wall. Chris found a hammer
lead that appears to get larger after 3 m and he worked on it for a while.
Then, they started the survey finding a nice room that was 6 m long by 5 m
wide. The ceiling is one continuous slab of flat rock at an angle of 40
degrees. A lead from the room connected back to R9 from a previous survey trip.
Reviewing the R survey notes, they saw that two leads were marked north of R9.
These were checked and found to lead to a room named "The Brewery."
Afterwards, Chris worked on his hammer lead some more and Marvin took some
photos. On the way out, they noted a lot of vent holes going down. Although
some lead back to the Miller Time room, others did not and have never been
checked. Through one hole you can see down at least 6 m and will be good leads
for a future trip. Marvin's team surveyed a total of 23 shots for 71.9 m.
In the central parts of the cave, Bennett Lee, Pam Campbell, Joe Schaertl, and
Drew Thompson were making an attempt to fill in the long "hole" that still
exists down the middle of the cave, which is only traversed by one known route.
Starting in the lower part of Bear Scratch Hall, they scouted multiple leads,
many of which terminated. Eventually they found one that went, connecting
across the "hole" to the Square Ceiling Room. A lead off of this route was then
followed and found to make an even shorter, almost straight line connection to
the Square Ceiling Room. This may now be the easiest route to the back parts of
the cave, although there is still quite a bit of crawling and squeezing to get
through this area. Other leads heading in other directions were checked and
found to either end or connect to different portions of the N survey and remain
to be surveyed. The team chalked up 12 shots for a total of 34.6 m.
Ellie Watson, Galen Falgout, and Tom Rogers as "Team Skins" tackled the area
near the Nutcracker Chimney which had some leads that Galen wanted to follow up
on. After squeezing down a slanting, tight lead, they surveyed through areas
totally coated in coral and aragonite. The rooms were well decorated with
dripping formations and one room had a mud floor. Their survey extended a long
distance, eventually approaching two other surveys near the Crooked Broomstick
Room, but not quite connecting. They surveyed 26 shots for 83.3 m.
Also at the west end of the cave, Joe Mitchell, Jim Kennedy, and Linda Palit
had the objective of following up on several leads to try to relocate the last
un-found section of the cave from the 1965 map. We brought Jim along to make
him jealous of all the cool stuff we are finding in Deep! :-) At our starting
point, as we were trying to decide which of the two leads to follow first, we
heard voices and we saw Galen in one of the leads. That killed our first option
so we followed the other route down into a couple of rooms that eventually led
a complex maze area with multiple small routes. The upgoing route came into a
junction room with 6 leads going off. Two didn't go, but the one heading
westward and down came into a larger room which was well decorated with active
formations. After comparing notes with the 1965 map, we concluded that this was
the Broomstick Room at the far western edge of the map, though the
“Broomsticks” were sized more for midgets. Behind this room, we followed a
downsloping route which continued to be well decorated until reaching a spot
where Linda found “DE 1965” etched in the mud. This was apparently the end of
the original exploration of the cave and completed the rediscovery of the lost
routes. However, a small lead with airflow was found that appeared to go to a
room, but since a bit of enlargement would be needed, we left it for a future
trip. Back in the junction room, one of the other leads led up to a very small
down-going route which may continue, while another went to a couple of other
small rooms before ending. The final lead was small and needed enlargement, but
after we worked on it for a while (Jim most especially) we got through, only to
find that it reconnected to a part of the AR survey from a previous trip. After
closing the loop, we called it a day, having surveyed 27 shots for 68.3 m.
The trip was very successful with a near record 320.5 m surveyed. This was
especially impressive since the leads are getting smaller and gnarlier and the
shots getting shorter. After accounting for overlapping shots and resurvey,
the new official length of Deep Cave is 5022.3 meters, moving ahead of Longhorn
Caverns to become the 9th longest cave in Texas.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly.
On 05/23/2014 19:34, Lynda & James Sï¿œnchez wrote:
I would think that as long as a letter is respectful and concerned it
will make a difference if dozens or hundreds show up. If done in this
way it should not be considered unprofessional and bordering on
bullying.It is a citizenï¿œs right to speak out and should not be taken
personally.
Mostly these folks do not like to read them, as it makes more work
for them, however, that is part of their job and we pay their
salaries. It is the beauty of this country, or should be anyway.
Heartfelt comments should not be feared but may even provide an
opportunity for these officials to point out to their bosses the
pending situation, problems and/or possible solutions.
Lynda
*From:* Louise Power <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Friday, May 23, 2014 3:34 PM
*To:* Stephen Fleming <mailto:[email protected]> ; NM Caver List
<mailto:[email protected]> ; texas cavers
<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [SWR] Fwd: Re: [azregion] Background on SWR FOIA
I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron Stockton, Cave Specialist at
the Carlsbad Field Office. He was very nice and told me that many of
the closed caves are being considered for reopening. He also told me
that about ten of the caves that were closed were already under a
closure order; that any gated cave requires a closure order,
especially a cave like Ft. Stanton Cave, which is a hibernaculum for a
special status species. He also said that many of the closed caves are
being managed under cooperative management and cost share agreements.
He said that the district gave the Ft. Stanton study group (don't know
what their official name is) $100,000 this year to help with their
studies.
I found him helpful and nice and informative. He also agreed with me
that inundating the State Director with emails is no way to get him on
their side. This issue is already on his radar. As you well know, we
feds operate at a snails pace in the best of times. Venting one's
spleen on a federal official doesn't make them faster or more cooperative.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I concur that a nicely worded letter to the NM BLM Director would be
acceptable. It should, however, be one that furthers the FOIA effort in place
rather than detracting from it. A letter supporting the FOIA effort and
thanking BLM for prompt attention to it would pass muster; a request for
something in a personal agenda, whether covered in the FOIA or not, would be
out of place. BLM has a mountainous plateful of work ahead just to respond to
the FOIA; adding something else to the mix would be contrary to the main issue.
And, a mountain of nice letters is still a mountain. Letters likely will not be
responded to in deference to the FOIA response.
Give the FOIA time to work. It is not an overnight solution to anything. What
was requested in it will take an enormous amount of time and effort to research
and compile. There will likely be a response to it at or just before the 20
working day period has expired. Let’s wait for that to occur. Hopefully it will
provide at least a loose timetable of information dissemination.
Jim
From: Stephen Fleming
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 8:40 PM
To: Lynda & James Sánchez ; Louise Power ; NM Caver List ; texas cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: [SWR] Fwd: Re: [azregion] Background on SWR FOIA
Exactly.
On 05/23/2014 19:34, Lynda & James Sánchez wrote:
I would think that as long as a letter is respectful and concerned it will
make a difference if dozens or hundreds show up. If done in this way it should
not be considered unprofessional and bordering on bullying.It is a citizens
right to speak out and should not be taken personally.
Mostly these folks do not like to read them, as it makes more work for
them, however, that is part of their job and we pay their salaries. It is the
beauty of this country, or should be anyway. Heartfelt comments should not be
feared but may even provide an opportunity for these officials to point out to
their bosses the pending situation, problems and/or possible solutions.
Lynda
From: Louise Power
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 3:34 PM
To: Stephen Fleming ; NM Caver List ; texas cavers
Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Re: [azregion] Background on SWR FOIA
I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron Stockton, Cave Specialist at the
Carlsbad Field Office. He was very nice and told me that many of the closed
caves are being considered for reopening. He also told me that about ten of the
caves that were closed were already under a closure order; that any gated cave
requires a closure order, especially a cave like Ft. Stanton Cave, which is a
hibernaculum for a special status species. He also said that many of the closed
caves are being managed under cooperative management and cost share agreements.
He said that the district gave the Ft. Stanton study group (don't know what
their official name is) $100,000 this year to help with their studies.
I found him helpful and nice and informative. He also agreed with me that
inundating the State Director with emails is no way to get him on their side.
This issue is already on his radar. As you well know, we feds operate at a
snails pace in the best of times. Venting one's spleen on a federal official
doesn't make them faster or more cooperative.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I make a motion that the report posted today by Joe & Evelynn, be officially
entered into the Top 10 of all CaveTex post.
Anyone 2nd the motion ?
David Locklear
NSS # 27639
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quite a few of you remember what was going on at this time on
the Texas caving scene in May of 1994. I was just an observer,
although I did go on one or 2 road-trips to Bracketville, from Houston.
2 cavers were very hard at work finishing up one of the best books about
Texas caves, and lots of cavers were assisting them.
Another caver was planning an incredible show recreating the battle
of the Alamo.
Swamp coolers were being installed by volunteer cavers that had travelled
from all over the state to one of the non-air-conditioned buildings at
Fort Clark
and caver-electricians were having to gerry-rig the whole set up.
Cavers were visiting caves in and around Bracketville to plan for convention
trips.
The 1994 NSS Convention, was a major event in my life. It was my
first introduction
to the NSS. Prior to that, I was
personally spending most of my spare time south of the border. And
after that,
I made an effort to attend future conventions, and thus had less
resources available
to go on trips south of the border.
On a related note,
"It was not just a different time. It was a different world."
All of that hard work was done without Cavetex, texting, and
smartphones, and Facebook, etc. Any cavers that had a computer were
using Windows 3.1 and saving their work to a floppy disk, and not on a
laptop. I bet typewriters were still being used by some. Gas only
cost about $ 1.10. On the world newsfront, Monica Lewinsky had not
yet met Bill Clinton, and the world ( not me ) was still anxiously
awaiting news updates over the Clinton scandals of Whitewater and
Paula Jones. Most of us were spending less than 10 minutes a day on
the internet, if any at all. Most cavers still had
cassette-tape-decks in their cars. Quite a few of our caving friends
at the 1994 convention are no longer with us. I am certain none of
us could have predicted the tragedies that happened just a few years
after the convention. Here is a toast to them.
http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/
http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/las_moras_springs_pool.jpg
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 24, 2014, at 2:05 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Quite a few of you remember what was going on at this time on
> the Texas caving scene in May of 1994. I was just an observer,
> although I did go on one or 2 road-trips to Bracketville, from Houston.
>
> 2 cavers were very hard at work finishing up one of the best books about
> Texas caves, and lots of cavers were assisting them.
>
> Another caver was planning an incredible show recreating the battle
> of the Alamo.
>
> Swamp coolers were being installed by volunteer cavers that had travelled
> from all over the state to one of the non-air-conditioned buildings at
> Fort Clark
> and caver-electricians were having to gerry-rig the whole set up.
>
> Cavers were visiting caves in and around Bracketville to plan for convention
> trips.
>
> The 1994 NSS Convention, was a major event in my life. It was my
> first introduction
> to the NSS. Prior to that, I was
> personally spending most of my spare time south of the border. And
> after that,
> I made an effort to attend future conventions, and thus had less
> resources available
> to go on trips south of the border.
>
>
> On a related note,
>
> "It was not just a different time. It was a different world."
>
> All of that hard work was done without Cavetex, texting, and
> smartphones, and Facebook, etc. Any cavers that had a computer were
> using Windows 3.1 and saving their work to a floppy disk, and not on a
> laptop. I bet typewriters were still being used by some. Gas only
> cost about $ 1.10. On the world newsfront, Monica Lewinsky had not
> yet met Bill Clinton, and the world ( not me ) was still anxiously
> awaiting news updates over the Clinton scandals of Whitewater and
> Paula Jones. Most of us were spending less than 10 minutes a day on
> the internet, if any at all. Most cavers still had
> cassette-tape-decks in their cars. Quite a few of our caving friends
> at the 1994 convention are no longer with us. I am certain none of
> us could have predicted the tragedies that happened just a few years
> after the convention. Here is a toast to them.
>
> http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/
>
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/las_moras_springs_pool.jpg
>
>
> David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't start caving until 1999 & wasn't in Texas; I really appreciate the
picture you've created. Jacqui
On May 24, 2014, at 6:57 AM, Andy Gluesenkamp wrote:
> Like
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 24, 2014, at 2:05 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Quite a few of you remember what was going on at this time on
>> the Texas caving scene in May of 1994. I was just an observer,
>> although I did go on one or 2 road-trips to Bracketville, from Houston.
>>
>> 2 cavers were very hard at work finishing up one of the best books about
>> Texas caves, and lots of cavers were assisting them.
>>
>> Another caver was planning an incredible show recreating the battle
>> of the Alamo.
>>
>> Swamp coolers were being installed by volunteer cavers that had travelled
>> from all over the state to one of the non-air-conditioned buildings at
>> Fort Clark
>> and caver-electricians were having to gerry-rig the whole set up.
>>
>> Cavers were visiting caves in and around Bracketville to plan for convention
>> trips.
>>
>> The 1994 NSS Convention, was a major event in my life. It was my
>> first introduction
>> to the NSS. Prior to that, I was
>> personally spending most of my spare time south of the border. And
>> after that,
>> I made an effort to attend future conventions, and thus had less
>> resources available
>> to go on trips south of the border.
>>
>>
>> On a related note,
>>
>> "It was not just a different time. It was a different world."
>>
>> All of that hard work was done without Cavetex, texting, and
>> smartphones, and Facebook, etc. Any cavers that had a computer were
>> using Windows 3.1 and saving their work to a floppy disk, and not on a
>> laptop. I bet typewriters were still being used by some. Gas only
>> cost about $ 1.10. On the world newsfront, Monica Lewinsky had not
>> yet met Bill Clinton, and the world ( not me ) was still anxiously
>> awaiting news updates over the Clinton scandals of Whitewater and
>> Paula Jones. Most of us were spending less than 10 minutes a day on
>> the internet, if any at all. Most cavers still had
>> cassette-tape-decks in their cars. Quite a few of our caving friends
>> at the 1994 convention are no longer with us. I am certain none of
>> us could have predicted the tragedies that happened just a few years
>> after the convention. Here is a toast to them.
>>
>> http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/
>>
>> http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/las_moras_springs_pool.jpg
>>
>>
>> David Locklear
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See also: 50 Years of Texas Caving, pages 133-137.
===Carl Kunath
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Jacqueline Thomas
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2014 8:22 AM
To: CaveTex
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 20 years ago - just reminiscing
I didn't start caving until 1999 & wasn't in Texas; I really appreciate the
picture you've created. Jacqui
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> On May 24, 2014, at 2:05 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Quite a few of you remember what was going on at this time on
>> the Texas caving scene in May of 1994. I was just an observer,
>> although I did go on one or 2 road-trips to Bracketville, from Houston.
>>
>> 2 cavers were very hard at work finishing up one of the best books about
>> Texas caves, and lots of cavers were assisting them.
>>
>> Another caver was planning an incredible show recreating the battle
>> of the Alamo.
>>
>> Swamp coolers were being installed by volunteer cavers that had travelled
>> from all over the state to one of the non-air-conditioned buildings at
>> Fort Clark
>> and caver-electricians were having to gerry-rig the whole set up.
>>
>> Cavers were visiting caves in and around Bracketville to plan for convention
>> trips.
>>
>> The 1994 NSS Convention, was a major event in my life. It was my
>> first introduction
>> to the NSS. Prior to that, I was
>> personally spending most of my spare time south of the border. And
>> after that,
>> I made an effort to attend future conventions, and thus had less
>> resources available
>> to go on trips south of the border.
>>
>>
>> On a related note,
>>
>> "It was not just a different time. It was a different world."
>>
>> All of that hard work was done without Cavetex, texting, and
>> smartphones, and Facebook, etc. Any cavers that had a computer were
>> using Windows 3.1 and saving their work to a floppy disk, and not on a
>> laptop. I bet typewriters were still being used by some. Gas only
>> cost about $ 1.10. On the world newsfront, Monica Lewinsky had not
>> yet met Bill Clinton, and the world ( not me ) was still anxiously
>> awaiting news updates over the Clinton scandals of Whitewater and
>> Paula Jones. Most of us were spending less than 10 minutes a day on
>> the internet, if any at all. Most cavers still had
>> cassette-tape-decks in their cars. Quite a few of our caving friends
>> at the 1994 convention are no longer with us. I am certain none of
>> us could have predicted the tragedies that happened just a few years
>> after the convention. Here is a toast to them.
>>
>> http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/
>>
>> http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/las_moras_springs_pool.jpg
>>
>>
>> David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, David, what memories that brings, and the heat that summer at the
convention was almost more than we Texas Cavers could stand! I remember serving
at the outdoor banquet, and had a pitcher of iced tea in hand. One rather
famous caver from Tennessee was complaining so rudely and vocally about the
heat that I almost gave him a cool down he richly deserved!
But, I have always, and still am, a Texas Lady, so he escaped my pique:) But I
bet there are cavers from all over that have never returned to Texas after that
scorching summer!! It was brutal!
Mimi Jasek
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 24, 2014, at 2:05 AM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Quite a few of you remember what was going on at this time on
> the Texas caving scene in May of 1994. I was just an observer,
> although I did go on one or 2 road-trips to Bracketville, from Houston.
>
> 2 cavers were very hard at work finishing up one of the best books about
> Texas caves, and lots of cavers were assisting them.
>
> Another caver was planning an incredible show recreating the battle
> of the Alamo.
>
> Swamp coolers were being installed by volunteer cavers that had travelled
> from all over the state to one of the non-air-conditioned buildings at
> Fort Clark
> and caver-electricians were having to gerry-rig the whole set up.
>
> Cavers were visiting caves in and around Bracketville to plan for convention
> trips.
>
> The 1994 NSS Convention, was a major event in my life. It was my
> first introduction
> to the NSS. Prior to that, I was
> personally spending most of my spare time south of the border. And
> after that,
> I made an effort to attend future conventions, and thus had less
> resources available
> to go on trips south of the border.
>
>
> On a related note,
>
> "It was not just a different time. It was a different world."
>
> All of that hard work was done without Cavetex, texting, and
> smartphones, and Facebook, etc. Any cavers that had a computer were
> using Windows 3.1 and saving their work to a floppy disk, and not on a
> laptop. I bet typewriters were still being used by some. Gas only
> cost about $ 1.10. On the world newsfront, Monica Lewinsky had not
> yet met Bill Clinton, and the world ( not me ) was still anxiously
> awaiting news updates over the Clinton scandals of Whitewater and
> Paula Jones. Most of us were spending less than 10 minutes a day on
> the internet, if any at all. Most cavers still had
> cassette-tape-decks in their cars. Quite a few of our caving friends
> at the 1994 convention are no longer with us. I am certain none of
> us could have predicted the tragedies that happened just a few years
> after the convention. Here is a toast to them.
>
> http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/
>
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/las_moras_springs_pool.jpg
>
>
> David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I look forward to the day we may explore caves while auto-3D-mapping with our
smart phones.
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/7489/20140524/google-project-tango-3d-mapping-tablets-may-be-the-ipad-killer-the-world-is-waiting-for.htm
sounds even better than the x-box mapper we saw at TSA convention in terms of
passage modeling at a caver scale.
-Viv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 22nd International Conference on Subterranean Biology will be held
in Juriquilla, Querétaro, Mexico, from 31 August though 5 September
2014. See
http://sistemas.fciencias.unam.mx/~22icsb/
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know why some stones ring or have a musical quality?
Thanks,
Karen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To all:
Nobody is trying to abridge anyone's constitutional freedoms. Only to point out
that there are ways of exercising them that are more productive than others.
Email bombing and bullying are not productive ways of dealing with any
executive. I'm done with this conversation. Nothing productive is being said at
this point and I'm tired of being email bombed and bullied and I'm not even an
excutive. I'm just a nice person who used to be a very active caver in the 60s
and 70s. I no longer want to be the object of your whiney, "I'm being so
abused," "I can do and say whatever I want" rants. Ask yourself, does anybody
really care! According to your complaints, possibly not, and certainly not me
any more. Let's find something else to talk about.
Louise
Subject: Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 11:06:57 -0600
CC: [email protected]; [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Jeff and Louise, In reading your open discussion of your previous e mail below,
I offer this, also keeping it open:
This is amendment I of the US Constitution, part of the Bill of Rights:
"Amendment I of the US Constitution:Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of
grievances."The last three sentences are what it seems to be all about and
beginning to happen here: freedom of speech or of the press, the right to send
e mails as often as we like; the right to peaceably assemble-as at the regional
or any other way we like; last and most important of all, the right to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances. i.e. an FOIA regarding the
policies of cave closure and WNS.
As for anyone stating that "you don't have a clue", I again refer to the
Constitution of the United States, especially the part about "to petition the
Government for a redress of grievances. " It states nothing about the workload
or anything else for whom the petition is directed.
As in my previous e mail dated 05/24, which I now include in this discussion:
"To set the record straight: Bullying, or being bullied, according to
www.meriam-webster.com, is "to treat abusively, to affect by means of coercion,
to use browbeating language or behavior".
Filing a FOIA request, or having one or 10,000 individuals send respectful e
mails to one or more BLM and or state officials is not bullying. To paraphrase
Lynda Sanchez in a recent post, it is a beautiful part of this country- TO BE
HEARD, whether in a town hall meeting, or as an individual participating in
threads on the SWR list-or sending a respectful e mail request to a BLM or for
that matter any government official-it is YOUR RIGHT. EXERCISING THAT RIGHT
ALLOWS YOU TO KEEP THAT RIGHT.
When policies, procedures, or laws are clearly unjust, there are ways in
which to ask that they be rectified. When we as a people, or in this case as a
community of cavers, allow ourselves to be administered to by BLM or ANY
government administrator in ways we perceive to be unjust, and DO NOT stand up
(respectfully) to be heard, we lose part of ourselves. We become less of a
democracy. We become less of ourselves."
FYI regarding respect:It is Mr. Jesse Juan, STATE DIRECTOR of the BLM. He
has earned that title, and should be addressed as such, as should any
government official e mailed to. Filing of the FOIA, and the sending
of e mails to BLM and hopefully to State Officials, is democracy at its best.
There should be never be any fear of doing so. " Nor should there be any
hesitation either.
Further, yes, keeping it civil is what it's all about. A person's workload and
priorities, or what they have on their agenda, are irrelevant. How many e mails
a government official gets regarding a petition for redress of grievances, is
absolutely relevant. It is an indicator of the opinions and values, likes and
dislikes of the people they serve in the position they occupy, in this case for
those who use PUBLIC LANDS- for whom they set policy, and work for.
Finally, as for "a better perspective": seems that that has already been taken
care of-about 214 years ago (final state ratification of the US Constitution).
An FOIA request, and respectful, relevant-to-the subject e mails, to
key-policy Government and (hopefully) State officials seems to be the proper,
finest, and very necessary mode of discourse-referring once again to the last
words of Amendment I, . "to petition the Government for a redress of
grievances."
As has been stated, it is far time that this is done regarding the
policies of the BLM regarding WNS and cave closures. Carl…...
On May 24, 2014, at 6:52 PM, Jeff B. wrote:Louise, we should keep this
discussion civil and out in the open. Mr. Juen has many issues on his plate,
but this particular issue has existed long enough to remove from the emergency
set of procedures and brought to the fully prescribed requirements for
restricting access along with rationale surrounded by reason and logic and not
conjecture and fear.
My clues: 5 U.S.C. § 552 - Freedom of Information Act
5 U.S.C. § 552b - Sunshine Act
We are asking for respectful communication regarding this issue, and in no way
intend to harass the director.
-Jeff-
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Louise Power <[email protected]> wrote:
Jeff,
Just what is it you think the State Director does? Do you think this is the
only issue on his agenda? Seems like you don't have a clue. Get back to me when
you have a better perspective.
Louise
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