texascavers Digest 16 Sep 2013 22:17:11 -0000 Issue 1846
Topics (messages 22698 through 22709):
book review: 1850s book on Postojnska Grotto
22698 by: Mixon Bill
Re: Solo Caving
22699 by: Bill Bentley
22700 by: Diana Tomchick
22701 by: James Jasek
22702 by: Phil Winkler
22703 by: James Jasek
22704 by: Amy Jasek
22705 by: James Jasek
22706 by: Julia Germany
Traditional Remote Observation Vehicles
22707 by: Josh Rubinstein
Solo
22708 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
22709 by: Bill Bentley
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
"John Oliver's Postojnska Jama of 1856, with an introduction by Trevor
Shaw." ZRC Publishing House, Ljubljana, Slovenia; 2013. ISBN
978-961-254-472-0. About 16.5 inches wide by 11.7 high, 183 pp. Free
73 MB PDF file from www.zrc-sazu.si/en/node/.
This is a color photographic reproduction of a bound manuscript volume
created by John Oliver in about 1855. The title of the original book
is, typically for the period, long-winded: "A Description of the
Caverns of Adelsberg in Carniolia, South Austria, being an Adaptation
of Alois Schaffenrath's Beschreibung der berühmten Grotto bei
Adelsberg, together with Illustrations and Supplementary Notes from
various Sources, the Whole Compiled, Translated, and Arranged by John
Oliver, who visited these Caverns in 1838." (He actually visited the
cave in 1837.) The book itself, which was purchased by Trevor Shaw in
1976, is preceded by twenty-six pages of introduction covering the
history of this book and the story of the German-language book that
was translated by Oliver, as well as notes about the Postojnska Grotto
itself during the nineteenth century, when the cave was known by its
German name. The old book itself consists of forty-eight pages of
elegant copperplate script--who can do that today?--in two columns on
lined paper, bound with a number of unlined sheets containing pasted-
in illustrations from various sources, and also incorporating a
smaller Appendix booklet of notes and comments by Oliver in his
regular hand. Trevor Shaw and the publishing house of the Slovenian
Academy of Sciences and Arts deserve thanks for making this unique
item, especially the text of Schaffenrath's 1834 now-rare guidebook,
widely available.—Bill Mixon
----------------------------------------
A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is
absolutely fatal.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pure Fun!
----- Original Message -----
From: Louise Power
To: Bill Bentley ; texas cavers
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Solo Caving
Was it 10 hours because you were having a good time or because you couldn't
find your way out?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ca...@caver.net
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:42:32 -0500
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Solo Caving
Done a whole bunch in Amazing Maze Cave back in the mid 80's. I was in my
20's and was going to live forever. Regular pack nothing out of the ordinary.
Can't remember if I told anyone where I was going or not. Would not do it
again... I teach and preach against it now... The longest solo trip in there
was about 10 hours...Maybe longer ...
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't get much time to discuss caving with people where I work, but last week
I had someone in my office that was admiring the Speleoprojects postcards I had
posted on my outer door (I save these from their calendar every year, and post
them in rotation as my mood changes). It turned out that she was yet another
person who claimed to suffer from claustrophobia and cto have fears that the
cave might collapse on her, and thus would never be enticed into caving. Ten
hours underground for most people would not be designated as "pure fun".
Whenever I hear someone talk about claustrophobia I find I have to restrain
myself from discussing my first "solo" caving adventure. This was actually on
my second wild caving trip. It involved a digging lead and I was the skinniest
person on the trip. By the time they had enlarged the hole enough to let me
through, they were so tired of digging that they just asked me to go on through
and check out the lead. This caused me some hesitation, for obvious reasons (to
a beginner, at least), but I was unwilling to admit my fears. I did protest
that I had no idea what constituted a caving lead, but they seemed sure enough
(or perhaps tired enough) to let me check it out on my own. So after telling
myself "it's now or never, either I go or I will never be a real caver", I
summed up the courage to squeeze through into a pretty large room. I checked it
out to the best of my beginner abilities and told them that it was a dead
end--but to this day I am sure that cave goes, I just didn't know how to sense
air movement and find the next digging lead to work on.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biophysics
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
On Sep 16, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Bill Bentley wrote:
> Pure Fun!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Louise Power
> To: Bill Bentley ; texas cavers
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:17 AM
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Solo Caving
>
> Was it 10 hours because you were having a good time or because you couldn't
> find your way out?
>
> From: ca...@caver.net
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:42:32 -0500
> Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Solo Caving
>
> Done a whole bunch in Amazing Maze Cave back in the mid 80's. I was in my
> 20's and was going to live forever. Regular pack nothing out of the ordinary.
> Can't remember if I told anyone where I was going or not. Would not do it
> again... I teach and preach against it now... The longest solo trip in there
> was about 10 hours...Maybe longer ...
>
> Bill
>
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for the interesting history of you past and early caving years.
Jim
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:08 PM, Diana Tomchick <diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu>
wrote:
> I don't get much time to discuss caving with people where I work, but last
> week I had someone in my office that was admiring the Speleoprojects
> postcards I had posted on my outer door (I save these from their calendar
> every year, and post them in rotation as my mood changes). It turned out that
> she was yet another person who claimed to suffer from claustrophobia and cto
> have fears that the cave might collapse on her, and thus would never be
> enticed into caving. Ten hours underground for most people would not be
> designated as "pure fun".
>
> Whenever I hear someone talk about claustrophobia I find I have to restrain
> myself from discussing my first "solo" caving adventure. This was actually on
> my second wild caving trip. It involved a digging lead and I was the
> skinniest person on the trip. By the time they had enlarged the hole enough
> to let me through, they were so tired of digging that they just asked me to
> go on through and check out the lead. This caused me some hesitation, for
> obvious reasons (to a beginner, at least), but I was unwilling to admit my
> fears. I did protest that I had no idea what constituted a caving lead, but
> they seemed sure enough (or perhaps tired enough) to let me check it out on
> my own. So after telling myself "it's now or never, either I go or I will
> never be a real caver", I summed up the courage to squeeze through into a
> pretty large room. I checked it out to the best of my beginner abilities and
> told them that it was a dead end--but to this day I am sure that cave goes, I
> just didn't know how to sense air movement and find the next digging lead to
> work on.
>
> Diana
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biophysics
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214A
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2013, at 12:04 PM, Bill Bentley wrote:
>
>> Pure Fun!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Louise Power
>> To: Bill Bentley ; texas cavers
>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:17 AM
>> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Solo Caving
>>
>> Was it 10 hours because you were having a good time or because you couldn't
>> find your way out?
>>
>> From: ca...@caver.net
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2013 13:42:32 -0500
>> Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Solo Caving
>>
>> Done a whole bunch in Amazing Maze Cave back in the mid 80's. I was in my
>> 20's and was going to live forever. Regular pack nothing out of the
>> ordinary. Can't remember if I told anyone where I was going or not. Would
>> not do it again... I teach and preach against it now... The longest solo
>> trip in there was about 10 hours...Maybe longer ...
>>
>> Bill
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> UT Southwestern Medical Center
> The future of medicine, today.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many, many years ago (1973?) I was in Waynesville MO over the
Christmas holiday on leave from the Army. I didn't know any cavers
there anymore, but did want to visit Christmas Cave which is listed
in J. Harlan Bretz' Caves of Missouri. Since it was a horizontal cave
I figured I could at least check it out.
So I drove up the valley, parked and walked across the field to the
cave entrance which was a large walk-in with standing water in the
entrance. Several cows were sheltering just inside. I crossed the
entrance and began hands and knees crawling the meandering stream
bed. I had 3 sources of light, etc., etc., but I do know I did not
feel entirely comfortable.
After about an hour of crawling the passage seem to be getting
smaller and I was getting tired. Then I turned the next corner and
someone had left a small red & white sign on the side saying "How
sweet it is!". I laughed and turned around to go out.
As I near the water in the front I heard what sounded like a large
flying something coming from inside the cave and getting closer and
closer. I really, really was creeped out thinking it a huge bat or
something. It was an owl and its wings were echoing off the walls
magnifying the sound.
I've never soloed again.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. Cool account if the solo trip. Made me feel as if I was there. This is
more or less the type if cave I was asking about as to a easy cave to do a solo
trip.
Others have contributed solo trips I feel are well beyond what I was asking
about. Being alone in the water crawl is an easy place to scare you good due to
noises.
I have enjoyed the really interesting solo trips cavers have admitted to. At
first all I got was the absolute negative but everyone is beginning to loosen
up.
Yes. Solo is risky to life thrusting but the point was to find out what others
have done. It has been very interesting
Thank you
Jim
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Phil Winkler <pw...@dca.net> wrote:
> Many, many years ago (1973?) I was in Waynesville MO over the Christmas
> holiday on leave from the Army. I didn't know any cavers there anymore, but
> did want to visit Christmas Cave which is listed in J. Harlan Bretz' Caves of
> Missouri. Since it was a horizontal cave I figured I could at least check it
> out.
>
> So I drove up the valley, parked and walked across the field to the cave
> entrance which was a large walk-in with standing water in the entrance.
> Several cows were sheltering just inside. I crossed the entrance and began
> hands and knees crawling the meandering stream bed. I had 3 sources of light,
> etc., etc., but I do know I did not feel entirely comfortable.
>
> After about an hour of crawling the passage seem to be getting smaller and I
> was getting tired. Then I turned the next corner and someone had left a small
> red & white sign on the side saying "How sweet it is!". I laughed and turned
> around to go out.
>
> As I near the water in the front I heard what sounded like a large flying
> something coming from inside the cave and getting closer and closer. I
> really, really was creeped out thinking it a huge bat or something. It was an
> owl and its wings were echoing off the walls magnifying the sound.
>
> I've never soloed again.
>
> Phil
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It isn't *really* solo, but the only time I have been in the cave at Kiwi I
explored a little by myself. One of the diggers working inside was kind enough
to tell me what to expect. I headed for an upper room and ended up belly
crawling in wet muck - I was so hungover I felt like I was going to die and all
I could think was "why the HELL am I doing this?!" I couldn't just turn around
& go right back after that journey so I poked around in the room for a while,
but the whole time it occurred to me what a terrible thing it was for me to be
alone there and I needed to be extremely careful. Somebody raised me with a
strong sense of safety I guess. Going ahead of the rest of the group a little
bit, or having some moments of total silence & darkness while helping with
photography is enough for me! I did like grubbing around in the brush for hours
by myself at TCR last year though.....
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2013, at 2:01 PM, James Jasek <caver...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> Thanks. Cool account if the solo trip. Made me feel as if I was there. This
> is more or less the type if cave I was asking about as to a easy cave to do a
> solo trip.
>
> Others have contributed solo trips I feel are well beyond what I was asking
> about. Being alone in the water crawl is an easy place to scare you good due
> to noises.
>
> I have enjoyed the really interesting solo trips cavers have admitted to. At
> first all I got was the absolute negative but everyone is beginning to loosen
> up.
>
> Yes. Solo is risky to life thrusting but the point was to find out what
> others have done. It has been very interesting
>
> Thank you
> Jim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Phil Winkler <pw...@dca.net> wrote:
>
>> Many, many years ago (1973?) I was in Waynesville MO over the Christmas
>> holiday on leave from the Army. I didn't know any cavers there anymore, but
>> did want to visit Christmas Cave which is listed in J. Harlan Bretz' Caves
>> of Missouri. Since it was a horizontal cave I figured I could at least check
>> it out.
>>
>> So I drove up the valley, parked and walked across the field to the cave
>> entrance which was a large walk-in with standing water in the entrance.
>> Several cows were sheltering just inside. I crossed the entrance and began
>> hands and knees crawling the meandering stream bed. I had 3 sources of
>> light, etc., etc., but I do know I did not feel entirely comfortable.
>>
>> After about an hour of crawling the passage seem to be getting smaller and I
>> was getting tired. Then I turned the next corner and someone had left a
>> small red & white sign on the side saying "How sweet it is!". I laughed and
>> turned around to go out.
>>
>> As I near the water in the front I heard what sounded like a large flying
>> something coming from inside the cave and getting closer and closer. I
>> really, really was creeped out thinking it a huge bat or something. It was
>> an owl and its wings were echoing off the walls magnifying the sound.
>>
>> I've never soloed again.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you. I raised you right. I was there when you crawled into this hell hole
of mud in tight breakdown in Kiwi. Your mom and me were helping with the dig.
When you came you told me not to go in there. You were covered in wet mud
Your father :)
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 16, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Amy Jasek <amylouis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It isn't *really* solo, but the only time I have been in the cave at Kiwi I
> explored a little by myself. One of the diggers working inside was kind
> enough to tell me what to expect. I headed for an upper room and ended up
> belly crawling in wet muck - I was so hungover I felt like I was going to die
> and all I could think was "why the HELL am I doing this?!" I couldn't just
> turn around & go right back after that journey so I poked around in the room
> for a while, but the whole time it occurred to me what a terrible thing it
> was for me to be alone there and I needed to be extremely careful. Somebody
> raised me with a strong sense of safety I guess. Going ahead of the rest of
> the group a little bit, or having some moments of total silence & darkness
> while helping with photography is enough for me! I did like grubbing around
> in the brush for hours by myself at TCR last year though.....
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 16, 2013, at 2:01 PM, James Jasek <caver...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks. Cool account if the solo trip. Made me feel as if I was there. This
>> is more or less the type if cave I was asking about as to a easy cave to do
>> a solo trip.
>>
>> Others have contributed solo trips I feel are well beyond what I was asking
>> about. Being alone in the water crawl is an easy place to scare you good due
>> to noises.
>>
>> I have enjoyed the really interesting solo trips cavers have admitted to. At
>> first all I got was the absolute negative but everyone is beginning to
>> loosen up.
>>
>> Yes. Solo is risky to life thrusting but the point was to find out what
>> others have done. It has been very interesting
>>
>> Thank you
>> Jim
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Phil Winkler <pw...@dca.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Many, many years ago (1973?) I was in Waynesville MO over the Christmas
>>> holiday on leave from the Army. I didn't know any cavers there anymore, but
>>> did want to visit Christmas Cave which is listed in J. Harlan Bretz' Caves
>>> of Missouri. Since it was a horizontal cave I figured I could at least
>>> check it out.
>>>
>>> So I drove up the valley, parked and walked across the field to the cave
>>> entrance which was a large walk-in with standing water in the entrance.
>>> Several cows were sheltering just inside. I crossed the entrance and began
>>> hands and knees crawling the meandering stream bed. I had 3 sources of
>>> light, etc., etc., but I do know I did not feel entirely comfortable.
>>>
>>> After about an hour of crawling the passage seem to be getting smaller and
>>> I was getting tired. Then I turned the next corner and someone had left a
>>> small red & white sign on the side saying "How sweet it is!". I laughed and
>>> turned around to go out.
>>>
>>> As I near the water in the front I heard what sounded like a large flying
>>> something coming from inside the cave and getting closer and closer. I
>>> really, really was creeped out thinking it a huge bat or something. It was
>>> an owl and its wings were echoing off the walls magnifying the sound.
>>>
>>> I've never soloed again.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:)))
- from julia's cell
On Sep 16, 2013, at 15:04, James Jasek <caver...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
> Thank you. I raised you right. I was there when you crawled into this hell
> hole of mud in tight breakdown in Kiwi. Your mom and me were helping with the
> dig. When you came you told me not to go in there. You were covered in wet mud
>
> Your father :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 16, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Amy Jasek <amylouis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It isn't *really* solo, but the only time I have been in the cave at Kiwi I
>> explored a little by myself. One of the diggers working inside was kind
>> enough to tell me what to expect. I headed for an upper room and ended up
>> belly crawling in wet muck - I was so hungover I felt like I was going to
>> die and all I could think was "why the HELL am I doing this?!" I couldn't
>> just turn around & go right back after that journey so I poked around in the
>> room for a while, but the whole time it occurred to me what a terrible thing
>> it was for me to be alone there and I needed to be extremely careful.
>> Somebody raised me with a strong sense of safety I guess. Going ahead of the
>> rest of the group a little bit, or having some moments of total silence &
>> darkness while helping with photography is enough for me! I did like
>> grubbing around in the brush for hours by myself at TCR last year though.....
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 16, 2013, at 2:01 PM, James Jasek <caver...@hot.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks. Cool account if the solo trip. Made me feel as if I was there. This
>>> is more or less the type if cave I was asking about as to a easy cave to do
>>> a solo trip.
>>>
>>> Others have contributed solo trips I feel are well beyond what I was asking
>>> about. Being alone in the water crawl is an easy place to scare you good
>>> due to noises.
>>>
>>> I have enjoyed the really interesting solo trips cavers have admitted to.
>>> At first all I got was the absolute negative but everyone is beginning to
>>> loosen up.
>>>
>>> Yes. Solo is risky to life thrusting but the point was to find out what
>>> others have done. It has been very interesting
>>>
>>> Thank you
>>> Jim
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:25 PM, Phil Winkler <pw...@dca.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Many, many years ago (1973?) I was in Waynesville MO over the Christmas
>>>> holiday on leave from the Army. I didn't know any cavers there anymore,
>>>> but did want to visit Christmas Cave which is listed in J. Harlan Bretz'
>>>> Caves of Missouri. Since it was a horizontal cave I figured I could at
>>>> least check it out.
>>>>
>>>> So I drove up the valley, parked and walked across the field to the cave
>>>> entrance which was a large walk-in with standing water in the entrance.
>>>> Several cows were sheltering just inside. I crossed the entrance and began
>>>> hands and knees crawling the meandering stream bed. I had 3 sources of
>>>> light, etc., etc., but I do know I did not feel entirely comfortable.
>>>>
>>>> After about an hour of crawling the passage seem to be getting smaller and
>>>> I was getting tired. Then I turned the next corner and someone had left a
>>>> small red & white sign on the side saying "How sweet it is!". I laughed
>>>> and turned around to go out.
>>>>
>>>> As I near the water in the front I heard what sounded like a large flying
>>>> something coming from inside the cave and getting closer and closer. I
>>>> really, really was creeped out thinking it a huge bat or something. It was
>>>> an owl and its wings were echoing off the walls magnifying the sound.
>>>>
>>>> I've never soloed again.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ahh, the stories. I once had a certain kind of madness named Tony Hopkins
as my digging partner. He had the bad judgement to bring his eight year
old son along with us. As happens often, I came to a place were I could
see beyond. I could smell it. I could taste it. But, i just couldn't fit.
It is not like I let him go cave solo. Like I told Tony, I had the other
end of the rope. On the whole, their navigational skills are far out
weighed by their undue attachment to living. Robots are better.
Josh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Solo
I have found this to be a rather interesting thread.
James' question, which started all this, was " What is the general feeling
regarding solo caving?"
That seems to have morphed into "Why would anyone go caving alone?" And
finally into folks actually describing some of their solo experiences.
"Why would you cave alone?" has as many answers as there are cavers who have
been caving by themselves.
Usually, when I have been asked that question, it has been from someone who
cannot comprehend (and usually appalled by) someone who would go off by
themselves, especially in or into a cave.
To those of you who have seriously asked why someone would cave alone, this
is a sincere effort to reply. Not really to explain. Certainly not to
justify.
Hold this thought:
What is unknown and therefore fearful for one person may be rather commonplace
for another.
Cavers, in particular, should understand this. Is there anyone reading this
who has not been asked "Why do you DO that?" Caves are DARK. Caves are
DANGEROUS. In the mud and the cold? There is no light in there!
Those of us comfortable at being alone in a cave often do not talk about it,
even when asked. There is that stigma attached by those who do not understand.
There is a huge difference between attempting to answer the question and to
encourage or invite someone to go off alone in a cave or to glorify caving by
themselves. I feel that to encourage or glorify is unethical, dangerous, and
perhaps even criminal. We are correct to advise others to cave in a group.
There is also a big difference between the kind of experience beyond the Turtle
Hurdles that Pete and I described and the kind of time spent by the Collins and
Boons of the world. And by Jack Lehrberger or Bill Austin (the manager of
Floyd Collins Crystal Cave in the 50s and 60s) and other "secret" cavers
seeking discoveries that are "theirs", and theirs alone. The solo experiences
described on this thread, more in line with what James was inquiring about, are
of shorter duration and less technically demanding than really serious solo
exploration of a major cave system. They are usually fun, at least when
they start out.
Sometimes there is a commercial interest. For some, it is the personal
challenge: "I can do that!" (A little chest-pounding?) A few cavers are just
uncomfortable around other people. Some have sought comfort from other
pressures in life by hiding out somewhere comfortable for them - a few have
found that spot in a cave.
I can best speak from my own experiences. As a young geologist-mountaineer I
became comfortable being alone in remote mountain and desert wilderness. I
did not think I was driven by the desire to be alone. I wanted to go
somewhere and see something particular and there was no one around with a
similar interest. And I liked to explore. It was fun to be somewhere new
and to see sights from an unusual perspective. I had learned the skills,
possessed the equipment, and used forethought and planning. It became
commonplace for me to be alone in the wilderness. I had a great time.
I felt that I was at less risk there than I was when riding my bicycle down
the streets of Laramie - or any town or city. Lew Bicking and I had a
discussion about that, just the two of us (not quite alone), in the Guadalupe
Mountains of New Mexico, shortly before he was killed on an eastern roadway.
I remember standing, very alone, high in the Rocky Mountains, looking down
into a bergschrund that seemed to drop downward forever, a blue-black slot
into an icy Hell. "If the snow I am standing on gives way, no one will
know what happened. No one has any idea where I am. I will simply
disappear from the face of the Earth."
I cautiously stepped back, for I have never been suicidal. At that time I
was a very good climber, an experienced leader but a cut below the best. A
climbing companion who was one of the best told me "You will never really
be a REALLY fine climber unless you put your life on the line."
I have never knowingly done so. I have enjoyed my climbing, caving, and
other experiences. I now look back on a full and interesting life. I was not
simply "lucky".
I have spent days alone in the wilderness, the mountains, the desert, and many
hours alone in caves. Quite often I started out above ground with no idea
where, exactly, I was going to be, although I had a goal. Somebody usually
knew, sort of. That would have narrowed it down, but the area might be 10
or 20 square miles. I remember finding a remote cave, and well back into
it thinking that if I became injured or trapped there would not even be
buzzards circling above to help others (or predators) locate me. An
interesting thought that really did not bother me as I felt comfortable in my
environment, with my equipment, and with my knowledge, which included knowledge
of myself.
Another thing I have considered is my responsibility to others. I realized
long ago that if I did manage to disappear, others would probably expend
considerable time, effort, and expense, possibly risking their own lives,
trying to figure out what happened to me. It didn't matter if I cared whether
they found me or not.
Back to solo CAVING. At first, it just sort of happened. Separated from the
others for a variety of reasons. An attempt to find a way on, or a different
way out, as in the case of the Turtle Hurdles. Or in big caves as a result of
practical need (going out, meeting a different group, moving supplies or
equipment). I found that most of those times were not especially "enjoyable".
Occasionally some became "lessons learned experiences", as Speleosteele has
described. Not solo caving in the original sense of the question.
Three of us in a South Dakota cave. A rest and a snack. Passages went
everywhere. Each of us went our separate way for a while, planning on
meeting back again at a set time. All virgin cave. Discovery. Quiet.
Beauty. Peace. A step toward what you were asking about?
In a "new" Guadalupe cave. Alone because others were either resting, eating,
or resolving a survey issue from a prior trip. Just looking around. A
little duck-under - hmm, this is getting nice. Careful where I step, this
is virgin! Farther, longer. More time alone. More careful steps through
very pretty virgin cave. I was about to turn around and THERE, at the seeming
end, was one foot print. Clearly, another caver, also alone, had been here
before. Both of us carefully stepping toward what you were asking about?
Over time and with accumulated experience, becoming quite comfortable alone in
a cave. I have had some experiences that have been personally rewarding and
quite memorable, alone in a cave. There are also times, not alone, when I
have felt it more dangerous, and certainly more anxiety-filled, to be with
someone who is less skilled and less comfortable with themselves and their
surroundings.
We should make our own choices and be cautious about judging the choice that
others make.
Dirt Doc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well said...
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: dirt...@comcast.net
To: Cave Texas
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 5:10 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Solo
Solo
I have found this to be a rather interesting thread.
James' question, which started all this, was " What is the general feeling
regarding solo caving?"
That seems to have morphed into "Why would anyone go caving alone?" And
finally into folks actually describing some of their solo experiences.
"Why would you cave alone?" has as many answers as there are cavers who have
been caving by themselves.
Usually, when I have been asked that question, it has been from someone who
cannot comprehend (and usually appalled by) someone who would go off by
themselves, especially in or into a cave.
To those of you who have seriously asked why someone would cave alone, this
is a sincere effort to reply. Not really to explain. Certainly not to
justify.
Hold this thought:
What is unknown and therefore fearful for one person may be rather
commonplace for another.
Cavers, in particular, should understand this. Is there anyone reading this
who has not been asked "Why do you DO that?" Caves are DARK. Caves are
DANGEROUS. In the mud and the cold? There is no light in there!
Those of us comfortable at being alone in a cave often do not talk about it,
even when asked. There is that stigma attached by those who do not understand.
There is a huge difference between attempting to answer the question and to
encourage or invite someone to go off alone in a cave or to glorify caving by
themselves. I feel that to encourage or glorify is unethical, dangerous, and
perhaps even criminal. We are correct to advise others to cave in a group.
There is also a big difference between the kind of experience beyond the
Turtle Hurdles that Pete and I described and the kind of time spent by the
Collins and Boons of the world. And by Jack Lehrberger or Bill Austin (the
manager of Floyd Collins Crystal Cave in the 50s and 60s) and other "secret"
cavers seeking discoveries that are "theirs", and theirs alone. The solo
experiences described on this thread, more in line with what James was
inquiring about, are of shorter duration and less technically demanding than
really serious solo exploration of a major cave system. They are usually fun,
at least when they start out.
Sometimes there is a commercial interest. For some, it is the personal
challenge: "I can do that!" (A little chest-pounding?) A few cavers are just
uncomfortable around other people. Some have sought comfort from other
pressures in life by hiding out somewhere comfortable for them - a few have
found that spot in a cave.
I can best speak from my own experiences. As a young geologist-mountaineer I
became comfortable being alone in remote mountain and desert wilderness. I did
not think I was driven by the desire to be alone. I wanted to go somewhere
and see something particular and there was no one around with a similar
interest. And I liked to explore. It was fun to be somewhere new and to see
sights from an unusual perspective. I had learned the skills, possessed the
equipment, and used forethought and planning. It became commonplace for me to
be alone in the wilderness. I had a great time.
I felt that I was at less risk there than I was when riding my bicycle down
the streets of Laramie - or any town or city. Lew Bicking and I had a
discussion about that, just the two of us (not quite alone), in the Guadalupe
Mountains of New Mexico, shortly before he was killed on an eastern roadway.
I remember standing, very alone, high in the Rocky Mountains, looking down
into a bergschrund that seemed to drop downward forever, a blue-black slot
into an icy Hell. "If the snow I am standing on gives way, no one will know
what happened. No one has any idea where I am. I will simply disappear from
the face of the Earth."
I cautiously stepped back, for I have never been suicidal. At that time I
was a very good climber, an experienced leader but a cut below the best. A
climbing companion who was one of the best told me "You will never really be a
REALLY fine climber unless you put your life on the line."
I have never knowingly done so. I have enjoyed my climbing, caving, and
other experiences. I now look back on a full and interesting life. I was not
simply "lucky".
I have spent days alone in the wilderness, the mountains, the desert, and
many hours alone in caves. Quite often I started out above ground with no
idea where, exactly, I was going to be, although I had a goal. Somebody
usually knew, sort of. That would have narrowed it down, but the area might
be 10 or 20 square miles. I remember finding a remote cave, and well back into
it thinking that if I became injured or trapped there would not even be
buzzards circling above to help others (or predators) locate me. An
interesting thought that really did not bother me as I felt comfortable in my
environment, with my equipment, and with my knowledge, which included knowledge
of myself.
Another thing I have considered is my responsibility to others. I realized
long ago that if I did manage to disappear, others would probably expend
considerable time, effort, and expense, possibly risking their own lives,
trying to figure out what happened to me. It didn't matter if I cared whether
they found me or not.
Back to solo CAVING. At first, it just sort of happened. Separated from the
others for a variety of reasons. An attempt to find a way on, or a different
way out, as in the case of the Turtle Hurdles. Or in big caves as a result of
practical need (going out, meeting a different group, moving supplies or
equipment). I found that most of those times were not especially "enjoyable".
Occasionally some became "lessons learned experiences", as Speleosteele has
described. Not solo caving in the original sense of the question.
Three of us in a South Dakota cave. A rest and a snack. Passages went
everywhere. Each of us went our separate way for a while, planning on meeting
back again at a set time. All virgin cave. Discovery. Quiet. Beauty. Peace. A
step toward what you were asking about?
In a "new" Guadalupe cave. Alone because others were either resting, eating,
or resolving a survey issue from a prior trip. Just looking around. A little
duck-under - hmm, this is getting nice. Careful where I step, this is virgin!
Farther, longer. More time alone. More careful steps through very pretty
virgin cave. I was about to turn around and THERE, at the seeming end, was one
foot print. Clearly, another caver, also alone, had been here before. Both
of us carefully stepping toward what you were asking about?
Over time and with accumulated experience, becoming quite comfortable alone
in a cave. I have had some experiences that have been personally rewarding and
quite memorable, alone in a cave. There are also times, not alone, when I have
felt it more dangerous, and certainly more anxiety-filled, to be with someone
who is less skilled and less comfortable with themselves and their surroundings.
We should make our own choices and be cautious about judging the choice that
others make.
Dirt Doc
--- End Message ---
