texascavers Digest 21 Mar 2013 18:46:23 -0000 Issue 1726
Topics (messages 21477 through 21490):
Re: NSS News
21477 by: Mimi Jasek
21484 by: Geary Schindel
Re: BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
21478 by: Louise Power
21480 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
21482 by: Mark Minton
Re: Thank you.
21479 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
NSS membership
21481 by: Gill Edigar
21489 by: Gill Edigar
Archived NSS News in PDF
21483 by: Phil Winkler
21486 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
Re: water-damaged TCs and NSS News
21485 by: Logan McNatt
21487 by: Butch Fralia
Re: Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
21488 by: Mark Minton
Report just in from British expedition to Sistema Huautla
21490 by: Speleosteele.aol.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Gosh, Bill, I said almost the exact same thing in the letter I sent to the BOG
an hour or so ago. Just did not post it. For us, though, we do not go to
conventions outside of Texas for many reasons, and have never gotten life
memberships. So the NSS News is our only tangible benefit!
Jim thinks if they need to save on printing something, let them quit printing
the members manual and make it on line only. Done properly, it could be an
amazing, digital tool for finding and contacting cavers all over.
Mimi Jasek
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 19, 2013, at 11:06 PM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> The NSS News is _the_ tangible benefit that most NSS members get. If I
> stopped getting it on paper, I might just drop my membership, if I wasn't in
> the ~ 10 percent of members who attend the convention and get a registration
> discount equal to dues (and if I wasn't a life member). Has the overhead in
> the society's budget (mainly the office) decreased as the membership has
> dropped? The society has just appeased its edifice complex by buying a big
> new "headquarters." While the cost of the property will no doubt be paid for
> by donations for the purpose, I suspect that overhead will increase when it
> ought to be decreasing. Work expands to fill the space available.
>
> Cutting the most visible member service is not the way to grow the
> membership. I think board members are, perhaps naturally, prone to
> overestimate how interested most members of the NSS are in intangible
> services such as promoting cave conservation and, to a minor extent, cave
> science. That so few regular members have opted to continue to get the
> journal on paper is not an indication of interest in a paper News. The
> journal is (too) specialized, and anyway, the membership renewal form on the
> web _still_, almost two years after the change to make the paper journal
> optional at extra cost, has no notice of that and no way to pay that cost.
> (Talk about spectacular administrative incompetence!) -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> Don't be led astray into the paths of virtue.
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
I'm sure that most of you have read the posts on the various caver forums by
now and I appreciate seeing everyone's comments. The NSS has a significant
budget short fall, as Wm said, and we've been cutting costs in all places. The
shortfall is related to a decrease in membership over the last 5 years. I
believe this is a result of a number of factors - long term member deaths,
changing interests, a down turn in the economy, lack of access to caves because
of White Nose which decreases recruitment, cost of membership, competing
interests among potential new members, etc. In addition, we've also been
getting questions about providing the NSS News in electronic format as some
folks prefer to receive their material over the internet. You can see this
trend in a decline in home delivery of newspapers and magazines and an increase
in on line subscriptions.
I think what we're talking about here is offering a choice among members, you
can get the NSS NEWS electronically for a reduced price which may help attract
members or if you're a luddite like me, you can pay a different rate and
receive a hard copy by mail. Either way, the electronic version will be
available to all members. I think choice is good and helps keep everyone happy.
In addition, the electronic issues allow some benefits that you can't put into
print such as interactive maps, more color photos, etc.
How do we improve our bottom line.
Membership recruitment and retention is incredibly important. I noted that most
of the Bexar Grotto are NSS members when I asked for a show of hands the other
day. The grotto also has a program to award a membership to a new caver every
year. The Bexar Grotto has also purchased relevant books from the NSS and
donated them to the local library system. This provides an educational resource
for the public and provides some free information on the local grotto (and some
cash flow to the NSS). In addition, the Bexar Grotto is also a member of the
404 club by donating $300 per year to the NSS for the new building. If 404
members donated $25 per month or $300 per year, we would cover the mortgage on
the new building and additional funds could be used for improvements or member
benefits (and you get a cool shirt which the grotto raffled off and we used
that money to buy a brick at the new facility with our grotto name engraved).
These are just a few of the ideas used to help support the society.
Some facts on the new building
The new building is only a few miles from the current office building and is a
great facility for an organization such as the NSS. It will be able to house
our full library collection in a professional manner, have plenty of room for
office staff, book stock, storage of NSS related materials, museum, meeting and
classrooms, etc. We also got an incredible deal on the property getting it at
rock bottom prices when the real estate market collapsed and at very low
interest rates. It is approximately 80 acres of land and actually contains some
caves. The front half of the property is also a campground. There are meeting
rooms in the building as well as a large auditorium. The 2014 convention will
be held there saving us a lot of money and is a good time for folks to visit.
The campground is also open to members for free camping. The office is being
renovated and after the move, we'll be able to rent out the old office. Note
also that the new building overhead will be paid though rental fees of the
property for various activities such as wedding receptions, various community
events, family reunions, and is expected to be a revenue generator for the
society in the near future as the facility is updated and better advertised.
For those of you that have been to the old office, it is what I call a blivit,
that is 10 lbs of stuff (insert explicit descriptor here) in a 5lb bag. It is
bulging at the seams, is not housing our collection very well, and makes it
difficult for the staff to work because of space.
If folks would like to hear more about the new office or other issues related
to the NSS, I would offer to try and visit a grotto meeting and present a
program - you'll also get an arm twisting about membership, the 404 club,
donations, etc. Be aware that Texas is a big place and I don't have the time or
money to visit every grotto in the state, but do try and arrange my travel
schedule around grotto meetings.
The NSS is a great organization. I've always been amazed at how much the NSS
gets done, all because of an incredibly committed group of volunteers.
Thanks and please be active in the NSS and call your directorate and let them
know what you think.
Geary Schindel
NSS Administrative Vice Chair
(The AVP responsibilities include Education, Conservation, Conventions, and
Preserves)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to throw my two cents in: I recently completed a long and arduous move
during which I discovered that I have more belongings than any sane person
should have (which should say something about my current state). The bulk of
those belongings, I discovered, were several forests worth of trees in the form
of a small-medium sized library; old newsletters; classic comix from the
Gilbert Shelton, Jaxon era (KEEPERS); I think if I looked long enough I could
probably find an old Charlie Loving poster or two (also keepers); magazines;
family correspondence (can't get rid of that); newspaper articles (many of
which I saved because they were my own work); various bureau publications which
I either wrote and/or edited; and a lot more. But I tell you, after this move,
I think it's a good thing we're recyclers here in Oregon because I have pretty
much fallen out of love with the idea of paper dox.
I belong to several organizations many of which now produce the bulk of their
publications on line. If I want to save anything, I just download it to my hard
drive and, after awhile, if I still find it valuable, onto a CD (or whatever
comes after that). With a few exceptions, I now have no qualms about scanning
much of what I have that is worth saving and putting it into an electronic
file. Having worked on my family history for almost 20 years now, I'm glad my
ancestors did not feel this way, but then, in the mid-1800s, they had no
choice. I have a choice.
I live in the Northwest home of a huge timber industry. For 32 years I have
worked for a federal agency that manages forest land (among other uses) and we
are under a constant barrage of lawsuits by both industry and conservationists
to produce or not produce timber for a variety of uses. I've lived in this area
for more than 20 years and seen both sides of the discussion.
Recently I have come to the conclusion that if we have a practical,
inexpensive, good quality choice, perhaps we ought to seriously consider taking
it.
I now step down from my soap box,
Louise
From: cave...@att.net
To: fr...@frankbinney.com; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 23:25:41 -0500
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
BOG proposal to end printed NSS NewsI think the NSS should pursue the concept
that the TSA and other organizations have. Give people an option for an online
version or mailed version (or both). With TSA and some grottos that have tried
that approach, the number of people who’ve preferred the online version vs
printed version and dropped the cost of printing significantly. Some time ago,
I had a water leak that soaked a box of NSS News and TSA Texas Cavers. They
sort of melted by the time I discovered they were water soaked. I can’t
recover those copies but could if they were all digitized. Stuff happens, even
if you have a printed copy, having a digital copy available isnt’ a bad thing.
Butch Fralia From: Frank Binney [mailto:fr...@frankbinney.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:11 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] BOG proposal to end printed NSS News FYI to Texas Cavers:
There is apparently a proposal being presented at this Saturday’s NSS Board of
Governor’s meeting to end delivery of the printed NSS News as part of your
regular NSS membership. This news has generated considerable recent comment on
the Western US caving lists, and has caught the NSS Editor by surprise (he
hadn’t be informed of the pending proposal).
For more info, consult an NSS BOG member.
Frank NSS 10816F
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gawd, let's hope not, Stefan!
The move to a two way membership (cheaper for online TEXAS CAVER. Higher
for mailed version), IMHO, probably saved the TSA and kept it solvent.
The NSS needs to do this. I would have no problem with an online
(cheaper) option.
I read 'em once and then they go on the shelf. I'm not that attached to
printed material.
Mark
(TSA Chairman at the time)
From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:31 PM
To: Frank Binney
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
Wonder if this one'll drag on as long as the TSA newsletter discussion
of the same? ;-)
Cheers,
Stefan
From: Phil Winkler [mailto:pw...@dca.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:16 PM
To: Frank Binney
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
Read all about it in the March 23 BOG Meeting topic:
http://cavechat.org/
Phil
On Mar 19, 2013, at 7:10 PM, Frank Binney wrote:
FYI to Texas Cavers:
There is apparently a proposal being presented at this Saturday's NSS
Board of Governor's meeting to end delivery of the printed NSS News as
part of your regular NSS membership. This news has generated
considerable recent comment on the Western US caving lists, and has
caught the NSS Editor by surprise (he hadn't be informed of the pending
proposal).
For more info, consult an NSS BOG member.
Frank NSS 10816F
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy
the information in any medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Butch,
You can download digital copies of your lost Texas Caver and
NSS News, and a great many other newsletters and publications, free
from the Karst Information Portal
<http://www.karstportal.org/browse?taxonomy=classification>.
Texas Caver: <http://www.karstportal.org/taxonomy/term/1025>
NSS News: <http://www.karstportal.org/taxonomy/term/948>
Mark
At 12:25 AM 3/20/2013, Butch Fralia wrote:
I think the NSS should pursue the concept that the TSA and other
organizations have. Give people an option for an online version or
mailed version (or both). With TSA and some grottos that have tried
that approach, the number of people who've preferred the online
version vs printed version and dropped the cost of printing significantly.
Some time ago, I had a water leak that soaked a box of NSS News and
TSA Texas Cavers. They sort of melted by the time I discovered they
were water soaked. I can't recover those copies but could if they
were all digitized. Stuff happens, even if you have a printed copy,
having a digital copy available isnt' a bad thing.
Butch Fralia
From: Frank Binney [mailto:fr...@frankbinney.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:11 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
FYI to Texas Cavers:
There is apparently a proposal being presented at this Saturday's
NSS Board of Governor's meeting to end delivery of the printed NSS
News as part of your regular NSS membership. This news has generated
considerable recent comment on the Western US caving lists, and has
caught the NSS Editor by surprise (he hadn't be informed of the
pending proposal).
For more info, consult an NSS BOG member.
Frank NSS 10816F
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good luck, Monica!
We're pulling for you!
Mark Alman
From: Espeleo Coahuila [mailto:espeleocoahu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 10:34 PM
To: TSA Cavers; texasca...@texascaver.com; Mark Alman
Subject: [Texascavers] Thank you.
Hi friends..
I want to dedicate this month by all of you!
You are my family and I'm a very lucky to have a wonderful texas caver
family!
I don't want to forget, that you are very important in my life.
Thanks for help me and support me in all my Cancer treatments
I had 3 years with out cancer, the next week I have the next appointment
with the doctor and the next year possible finish the treatment.
wiht your love I can do it!!!
Thank you!
Love you. Moni.
--
LCC. Monica Grissel Ponce Gonzalez
Asociacion Coahuilense de Espeleologia, A.C. (fundadora)
Associazione Geografica La Venta- Italia (socia)
Centro de Estudios Karsticos La Venta (socia)
Grupo Espeleologico Vaxakmen, A.C. (socia)
Association for Mexican Cave Studies (colaboradora)
Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
Union Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleologicas (Socia)
045-844-1478311 cel.
monicaponce1 by skype.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From Bill Stringfellow--
The good thing about becoming a Life Member at any time is that it helps the
NSS now and later. Most people don't know this but Life Member dues are not
spent as soon as they come in. The money gets put into the Life Membership
Fund managed by the National Speleological Foundation. Each year the Life
Membership Fund returns to the NSS the full cost of Regular Member dues for
each Life Member. Any income earned in excess of what is needed for Regular
Dues for all Life Members is available for the NSS to use for other
purposes.
So paying your Life Dues at any time helps the NSS now in two ways now and
then on an ongoing basis after you have gone off to Valhalla. I encourage
everyone to become a life member as soon as they can.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What Mixon said!
But rather than complain and take measures which will decrease
membership even further I offer an all too simple solution to solve
it--and that lies in the Grottos. From where I sit I can see an NSS
membership that is growing old and Grotto activity mirrors that.
Traditionally, Grottos were the breeding ground of new cavers. One of
the results of an older membership is a reduction or even a total lack
of recruitment and training in Grottos. A couple of dozen years ago
there was a similar financial crisis within the NSS and a membership
drive was held to push NSS membership to over 10,000 cavers. With
enough pushing and prodding that was accomplished. What I think is
needed now is another membership drive within the Grottos to both
recruit new cavers and to get their non-NSS members to join. I suspect
that some Grottos have aged to the point that they no longer have any
members qualified to teach vertical caving safely--equipment and
techniques have changed a lot over the decades--making things even
harder. My suggestion is that we put extra pressure on all Grottos
(especially those with college campuses nearby) to ACTIVELY recruit
new members and baby-sit them all the way to membership in the Grotto
and the NSS. There are sufficient regional Projects extant that not
having training caves available is not acceptable as an excuse. Older,
retired cavers can certainly gather cavers and get them to Grotto
meetings and Projects even if the old timers just sit around the fire
all weekend. The problem with low NSS membership is a failure to
attract new cavers, not the dying off of the old ones. We need a
full-speed-forward effort in the entire caving community to recruit,
train, and retain new cavers from the ranks of adventurous younger
people.
--Ediger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are all the back issues.
https://secure.caves.org/nss-business/publications/NSS_News/index.shtml
Just log in with your NSS# and zip code.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And a GREAT BIG THANKS to Alex Sproul for the many hours of work to scan those
in!!!
DirtDoc
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Winkler" <pw...@dca.net>
To: "Cave Tex" <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 10:01:37 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] Archived NSS News in PDF
Here are all the back issues.
https://secure.caves.org/nss-business/publications/NSS_News/index.shtml
Just log in with your NSS# and zip code.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Butch,
Send me a list of the TCs you lost and I can replace those that are still in print. There are many extra copies of the NSS News in the TSS
office, so send me a list of those issues you lost, too.
This is contingent on your confirmation that you have fixed the water leak!
;-)
Logan
On 3/19/2013 11:25 PM, Butch Fralia wrote:
BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
I think the NSS should pursue the concept that the TSA and other organizations have. Give people an option for an online version or mailed
version (or both). With TSA and some grottos that have tried that approach, the number of people who've preferred the online version vs
printed version and dropped the cost of printing significantly.
Some time ago, I had a water leak that soaked a box of NSS News and TSA Texas Cavers. They sort of melted by the time I discovered they were
water soaked. I can't recover those copies but could if they were all digitized. Stuff happens, even if you have a printed copy, having a
digital copy available isnt' a bad thing.
Butch Fralia
*From:*Frank Binney [mailto:fr...@frankbinney.com]
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:11 PM
*To:* Texas Cavers
*Subject:* [Texascavers] BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
FYI to Texas Cavers:
There is apparently a proposal being presented at this Saturday's NSS Board of Governor's meeting to end delivery of the printed NSS News as
part of your regular NSS membership. This news has generated considerable recent comment on the Western US caving lists, and has caught the
NSS Editor by surprise (he hadn't be informed of the pending proposal).
For more info, consult an NSS BOG member.
Frank NSS 10816F
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Logan it's long been fixed, happened about 8 years ago, I'd have to find all
I have and figure out when I started losing them.
Regards,
Butch
From: Logan McNatt [mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:27 PM
To: Butch Fralia
Cc: 'Texas Cavers'
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] water-damaged TCs and NSS News
Butch,
Send me a list of the TCs you lost and I can replace those that are still in
print. There are many extra copies of the NSS News in the TSS office, so
send me a list of those issues you lost, too.
This is contingent on your confirmation that you have fixed the water leak!
;-)
Logan
On 3/19/2013 11:25 PM, Butch Fralia wrote:
I think the NSS should pursue the concept that the TSA and other
organizations have. Give people an option for an online version or mailed
version (or both). With TSA and some grottos that have tried that approach,
the number of people who've preferred the online version vs printed version
and dropped the cost of printing significantly.
Some time ago, I had a water leak that soaked a box of NSS News and TSA
Texas Cavers. They sort of melted by the time I discovered they were water
soaked. I can't recover those copies but could if they were all digitized.
Stuff happens, even if you have a printed copy, having a digital copy
available isnt' a bad thing.
Butch Fralia
From: Frank Binney [mailto:fr...@frankbinney.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 6:11 PM
To: Texas Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] BOG proposal to end printed NSS News
FYI to Texas Cavers:
There is apparently a proposal being presented at this Saturday's NSS Board
of Governor's meeting to end delivery of the printed NSS News as part of
your regular NSS membership. This news has generated considerable recent
comment on the Western US caving lists, and has caught the NSS Editor by
surprise (he hadn't be informed of the pending proposal).
For more info, consult an NSS BOG member.
Frank NSS 10816F
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen two examples of ropes left in caves near flowing
water becoming completely encased in calcite. The first was a rope I
had left hanging in a small waterfall in Spring Creek Cave. When
Bill Steele went back there about 20 years alter, the rope had a
calcite coating up to a quarter of an inch thick. An even more
spectacular example was a rope left in a river cave in Puerto Rico by
unknown persons. When we revisited the cave in 2010 the rope had an
even coating of calcite 3/8-inch thick all around. It was like a stone pipe.
Mark
At 04:09 PM 3/12/2013, Allan B. Cobb wrote:
You are correct Don, I thought about those as soon as I hit send.
Maya vessels about 40 cm in diameter completely encased in columns
about a meter wide at the base and more than 2 meters tall. There
were three of them (that we could see) in the cave.
Allan
From: Don Arburn
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:55 PM
To: Allan B. Cobb
Cc: Neal Hines ; nealahi...@gmail.com ; Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
Don't forget those vessels completely encompassed by formations to
the point they were really no longer visible in the column, except
where looters hammered away to expose them.
Sent cellularly.
-Don
On Mar 12, 2013, at 2:25 PM, "Allan B. Cobb" <a...@oztotl.com> wrote:
In Guatemala, I have seen calcite almost completely covering
flagging tape that we left surveying the year before. I have seen
stalagmites about 50 cm tall growing out of Maya vessels that are a
little more than a thousand years old. I have seen photos of one
almost a meter high growing out of a 1000 year old Maya vessel. The
growth rate of speleothems is highly variable.
Allan
From: Neal Hines
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:33 AM
To: nealahi...@gmail.com
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: [Texascavers] Estimate of stalactite growth (Merkel et al. 2008)
This morning I read a geochemistry text on carbonate mineralization
that gave an example of how much stalactites might grow in one
year: 0.19 mm/year. It's a recent book (Merkel et al. Groundwater
Geochemistry 2008).
Assumptions: partial pressure CO2 of 3% (charged up from soils)
degassing to 0.03% (by volume; atmospheric level), 100L of water
dripping from the ceiling, and the ceiling covered by 15% stalactites.
Cavers all know this growth varies by quite a bit, but this might
serve as a rough upper end growth rate. So, within a caver's life
of 70 years, you could see a formation grow by over 1 cm! Lending
truth to the observation I've heard of some cavers that, "this
passage has shifted since I was here last." Sodastraws can grow
even faster I believe & I'm sure people will have opinions on that.
Also, thanks to Ron Green for doing the webinar on Geophysics in
karst landscapes last night. I caught only the tail end, but there
were tons of questions and very interested participants.
-Neal Hines
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
News just in from the British expedition to Sistema Huautla: The divers
are back on the surface after a week spent camping on the far side of the two
long sumps located at the bottom of the cave system. They found about 1.5
km of new passage and the Sump 9 dive ended up at approx 450m in at a depth
of 80m. Everything is back through the sumps and a lot of gear (if not all
by now) is either at Camp 3 or back at the 620m depot.
So, they added 80m in depth, which makes Sistema Huautla now 1,555m deep,
the deepest cave in the Western Hemisphere again (which it hasn't been for
about 20 years), and moves it up the list from world's 12th deepest cave to
now the 8th.
Bill Steele
--- End Message ---
