texascavers Digest 10 Nov 2011 22:17:30 -0000 Issue 1434
Topics (messages 19053 through 19060):
Re: Cave Painters Accurate
19053 by: Robert B
19056 by: James Edwards
19057 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
TSS thanks!
19054 by: Jim Kennedy
Xilitla petroglyphs
19055 by: Mixon Bill
Longhorn Wrap Up-Saturday, November 5th
19058 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
19060 by: Natasha Glasgow
Colorado bend free ride
19059 by: Benjamin Yasui
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--- Begin Message ---
anatomically accurate, hmmm?
I can just imagine that in the far future some cave exploring species will
find some of our more recently created cave sculptures and a debate
will begin as to their annatomical accuracy.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Andy Zenker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think it's interesting how the writers don't say exactly what they
> mean. It was stated in the caption below the picture: An ancient DNA
> study found that Ice Age artists drew horses based on their observations
> rather than imagination.
>
> I would say that the study probably showed that the horses were, indeed,
> spotted, but the study doesn't have any data about the artist's motivation
> for the painting. We are only inferring that he, the artist, based his
> paintings on observation. My point is that a DNA study really has nothing
> to do with this so stating it that way is not accurate.
> I'm just being picky. :) Say what you mean. Mean what you say.
>
> Andy Z
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Scientists have determined that prehistoric cave paintings are
>> probably anatomically accurate: <http://www.rdmag.com/News/**
>> 2011/11/Life-Science-Genomics-**Cave-painters-were-realists-**
>> DNA-study-finds/<http://www.rdmag.com/News/2011/11/Life-Science-Genomics-Cave-painters-were-realists-DNA-study-finds/>
>> >.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Please reply to [email protected]
>> Permanent email address is [email protected]
>>
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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>>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Well if you draw something that looks just like something you've already
seen, it couldn't really have come from your imagination, in the same sense
as a drawing unlike anything you've ever seen.
In any case, it would be fascinating to know how they actually determined
the horses' appearance from the DNA.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Andy Zenker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think it's interesting how the writers don't say exactly what they
> mean. It was stated in the caption below the picture: An ancient DNA
> study found that Ice Age artists drew horses based on their observations
> rather than imagination.
>
> I would say that the study probably showed that the horses were, indeed,
> spotted, but the study doesn't have any data about the artist's motivation
> for the painting. We are only inferring that he, the artist, based his
> paintings on observation. My point is that a DNA study really has nothing
> to do with this so stating it that way is not accurate.
> I'm just being picky. :) Say what you mean. Mean what you say.
>
> Andy Z
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Scientists have determined that prehistoric cave paintings are
>> probably anatomically accurate: <http://www.rdmag.com/News/**
>> 2011/11/Life-Science-Genomics-**Cave-painters-were-realists-**
>> DNA-study-finds/<http://www.rdmag.com/News/2011/11/Life-Science-Genomics-Cave-painters-were-realists-DNA-study-finds/>
>> >.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Please reply to [email protected]
>> Permanent email address is [email protected]
>>
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> texascavers-unsubscribe@**texascavers.com<[email protected]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> texascavers-help@texascavers.**com<[email protected]>
>>
>>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
From what I have read, dna extracted from horse bones & teeth found in the cave has the mutation found in the horse genome for spottiness (appalousity?)
Well if you draw something that looks just like something you've already seen, it couldn't really have come from your imagination, in the same sense as a drawing unlike anything you've ever seen.
In any case, it would be fascinating to know how they actually determined the horses' appearance from the DNA.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 AM, Andy Zenker
<[email protected]> wrote:
I think it's interesting how the writers don't say exactly what they mean. It was stated in the caption below the picture: An ancient DNA study found that Ice Age artists drew horses based on their observations rather than imagination.
I would say that the study probably showed that the horses were, indeed, spotted, but the study doesn't have any data about the artist's motivation for the painting. We are only inferring that he, the artist, based his paintings on observation. My point is that a DNA study really has nothing to do with this so stating it that way is not accurate.
I'm just being picky. :) Say what you mean. Mean what you say.
Andy Z
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The Texas Speleological Survey had another highly successful work
session yesterday evening at the TSS "offices" on the J. J. Pickle
Research Campus in northwest Austin. 14 volunteers showed up to help
organize cave files and do other work. Particularly appreciated was the
moving of about a dozen 4-drawer file cabinets up two flights of stairs
to allow for more storage of our archives. Thanks go to James Reddell
for the cabinets, and a BIG thanks goes to Katy Arens, Yazmin Avila,
Leslie Bell, Rune Burnett, Christopher Franke, Kristina Hager, Maya Liu,
Bill Mixon, David Ochel, Ron Ralph, Bill Russell, Ann Scott, and even my
mom, Cooky Kennedy, who joined me in accomplishing a lot of work in a
very short time.
TSS opens its doors the second Wednesday of every month for those
wishing to utilize the TSS files and help with TSS projects. These
workdays are made available for all Texas cavers, so please take
advantage of them. The next scheduled worksession is December 14. For
dates, directions, and more information about the TSS, please visit our
website at www.txspeleologicalsurvey.org.
Jim Kennedy
TSS Office Manager
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Those "petroglyphs" on the rock at Xilitla, SLP, sure look machine-
made to me. I wonder if the Turismo Municipal has been suckered or is
looking for suckers. -- Mixon
http://www.pulsoslp.com.mx/Noticias.aspx?Nota=61162
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It’s been awfully quiet here on CaveTex, so I thought I would send along a
project report from last weekend.
I know there were other projects going on last weekend (Deep/Punkin, Robber
Baron Open House, Gov’t Canyon), so post away!
The next Longhorn Cavern project will be next month, Saturday, December 3rd.
From Gerry Geletzke
Of the 19 that went in through the Crownover entrance, 17 made it to the second
sump, two stayed at the first sump. The low air at the first sump provided
about six or seven inches of air at its lowest point, a little more than Summer
2009. The second sump water level looked like it was down about three to four
feet from Summer 2009 but it didn't provide any real additional passage only a
larger terminal room. Mallory took several pictures of the second sump to
document its current state. (One interesting note; Caleb found his initials
and '2009' still clearly legible in the lower dirt sidewall of the passage
between the two sumps.) On the way back to the Crownover passage Caleb,
Mallory and I looked for and partially explored a couple of already identified
leads but we did not want to get too far behind the rest of the group. All 19
of us took the Water Trail passage on the way back to the Crownover passage
also. After regaining the Crownover passage, 13 exited the cave and six of us
went over the dams and down the main passage to intersect with the Wigglies pit
entrance. Your rope and carpet at the dams seemed to have weathered the last
two years fine. We then entered the Wigglies and exited back in the Crownover
passage. There was some water in the Wigglies but at the deepest point it was
less that one foot deep. We then proceeded to exit the cave.
I look forward to the next Longhorn work trip.
Participants:
Mallory and Caleb Mayeux
Andy and Angela Edwards
Zach Broussard
-Chelsea Bergoine
-Cruz St. Peters
-Chelsea Small
-Kyle Leonard
-Will Schievelbein
-Tori Dunbar
-James Kancewick
-Sam Kancewick
-Jerome Cap
-Scott Grimes
-Valerie Bowen
-Jared Lingo
-Natasha Glasgow
Sincerely,
Gerry Geletzke – Team Leader
From yours truly:
It was pretty brisk camping out Friday night and the direct opposite Saturday
night. Weird!
We had a total turnout of 24 folks and a dog attend. GHG, A.S.S., TSA, and DFW
Grottos well represented.
Met Jim Sheets, the new Park Host. A very nice and accommodating gentleman and
who will be very easy to work with. The LCSP staff is also very excited and
welcoming and looking forward to having us down in the future.
Julia Germany, Edwin Lehr, Natasha’s son, Peyton, and myself worked in the
Lovers Lane area.
We moved a lot of dirt and rock and began on the area directly below a pool of
water (!) called the Pigs Trough. Julia and Peyton visited this area and took
pix.
We got a good start at rebuilding this area, covering the large drainage pipe,
and obscuring the manmade dam that forms this area.
We still have a lot to do and they gave us a thorough tour of the cave showing
what other tasks they would like to see done and where fill can be located or
relocated.
Some of the items were:
Fill in washed areas near both entrances to LL.
Did out the encrusted mud on the trail near the Pig Trough.
Complete rebuilding the drainage pipe are below the Pig Trough.
Did out the mud filled trenches in the LL area and area leading to
Frozen Waterfall area.
Unclog drainage pipe in Frozen Waterfall area.
Fill in some other washed out areas.
Ridge walk areas of the park, including a few new karst features that
may/may not connect with the cave.
These last two items are pretty exciting:
Discussed with Christina and Brad about forming a 501C non-profit
called “The Friends of Longhorn Caverns” that could do fundraising, etc. in
order to pay for projects in the cave, much like Colorado Bend SP and other
State Parks have. Julia is much more knowledgeable on this that me and knows
all the how to’s and details. LCSP folks very excited about this.
There is an area near Lumbago Alley, towards the Turnaround/Catfish
Lake jump off that takes a LOT of water, according to Brad. They would love for
us to dig this out and see if there are additional levels of the cave. The tube
is filled in with loose gravel and looks pretty similar to the Crownover
Causeway and would be easy to dig out.
The Aggies had a good time celebrating someone’s 21st birthday (I forgot who)
Saturday night and the Bluebonnet Café in Marble Falls was excellent, as usual.
Much pontificating accomplished at the top of the Observation Tower Friday and
Saturday nights while enjoying the stars and a few adult beverages! A great
place to relax after a busy day in the cave.
Thanks!
Mark
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Don't forget the UT Grotto......I believe that Angela and Andy are UT.
Natasha
________________________________
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:22 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] Longhorn Wrap Up-Saturday, November 5th
Longhorn Wrap Up-Saturday, November 5th
It’s been awfully quiet here onCaveTex, so IthoughtI would send along a
projectreportfrom last weekend.
I know there were other projects going on last weekend (Deep/Punkin,Robber
Baron Open House, Gov’t Canyon), so post away!
The next LonghornCavern project will benext month, Saturday, December 3rd.
From Gerry Geletzke
Of the 19 that went in through the Crownover entrance, 17 made it to the second
sump, two stayed at the first sump. The low air at the first sump provided
about six or seven inches of air at its lowest point, a little more than Summer
2009. The second sump water level looked like it was down about three to four
feet from Summer 2009 but it didn't provide any real additional passage only a
larger terminal room. Mallory took several pictures of the second sump to
document its current state. (One interesting note; Caleb found his initials
and '2009' still clearly legible in the lower dirt sidewall of the passage
between the two sumps.) On the way back to the Crownover passage Caleb,
Mallory and I looked for and partially explored a couple of already identified
leads but we did not want to get too far behind the rest of the group. All 19
of us took the Water Trail passage on the way back to the Crownover passage
also. After regaining the
Crownover passage, 13 exited the cave and six of us went over the dams and
down the main passage to intersect with the Wigglies pit entrance. Your rope
and carpet at the dams seemed to have weathered the last two years fine. We
then entered the Wigglies and exited back in the Crownover passage. There was
some water in the Wigglies but at the deepest point it was less that one foot
deep. We then proceeded to exit the cave.
I look forward to the next Longhorn work trip.
Participants:
Mallory and Caleb Mayeux
Andy and Angela Edwards
Zach Broussard
-Chelsea Bergoine
-Cruz St. Peters
-Chelsea Small
-Kyle Leonard
-Will Schievelbein
-Tori Dunbar
-James Kancewick
-Sam Kancewick
-Jerome Cap
-Scott Grimes
-Valerie Bowen
-Jared Lingo
-Natasha Glasgow
Sincerely,
Gerry Geletzke – Team Leader
From yours truly:
It was pretty brisk camping out Friday night and the direct opposite Saturday
night. Weird!
We had a total turnout of 24 folks and a dog attend. GHG, A.S.S., TSA, and DFW
Grottos well represented.
Met Jim Sheets, the new Park Host. A very nice and accommodating gentleman and
who will be very easy to work with. The LCSP staff is also very excited and
welcoming and looking forward to having us down in the future.
Julia Germany, Edwin Lehr, Natasha’s son, Peyton, and myself worked in the
Lovers Lane area.
We moved a lot of dirt and rock and began on the area directly below a pool of
water (!) called the Pigs Trough. Julia and Peyton visited this area and took
pix.
We got a good start at rebuilding this area, covering the large drainage pipe,
and obscuring the manmade dam that forms this area.
We still have a lot to do and they gave us a thorough tour of the cave showing
what other tasks they would like to see done and where fill can be located or
relocated.
Some of theitemswere:
Fill in washed areas near both entrances to LL.
Did out the encrusted mud on the trail near the Pig Trough.
Complete rebuilding the drainage pipe are below the Pig Trough.
Did out the mud filledtrenches in the LL area and area leading to Frozen
Waterfall area.
Unclog drainage pipe in Frozen Waterfall area.
Fill in some other washed out areas.
Ridge walk areas of the park, including a few new karst features that
may/may not connect with the cave.
These last two items are pretty exciting:
Discussed with Christina and Brad about forming a 501C non-profit called
“The Friends of Longhorn Caverns” that could do fundraising, etc. in order to
pay for projects in the cave, much like Colorado Bend SP and other State Parks
have. Julia is much more knowledgeable on this that me and knows all the how
to’s and details. LCSP folks very excited about this.
There is an area near Lumbago Alley, towards the Turnaround/Catfish Lake
jump off that takes a LOT of water, according to Brad. They would love for us
to dig this out andsee if there are additional levels of the cave. The tube is
filled in with loose gravel and looks pretty similar to the Crownover Causeway
and would be easy to dig out.
The Aggies had a good time celebrating someone’s 21stbirthday (I forgot who)
Saturday night and the Bluebonnet Caféin Marble Falls was excellent, as usual.
Much pontificating accomplished at the top of the Observation Tower Friday and
Saturday nights while enjoying the stars and a few adult beverages!A great
place to relax after a busy day in the cave.
Thanks!
Mark
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I'm going to the Colorado bend project tomorrow. I can leave any time and
don't need any gas money. The only issue is I have to come back Saturday
night for work Sunday, so you may have to get a ride back with someone
else. Give me a shout if you want to ride together.
Nicholas yasui.
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