texascavers Digest 24 May 2011 21:34:25 -0000 Issue 1320
Topics (messages 17870 through 17889):
Re: Maya calendar
17870 by: Chad Fenner
17873 by: Don Cooper
hi
17871 by: rallgeyer.gmail.com
17872 by: Don Arburn
NaturFest summary
17874 by: David
17886 by: Ron Ralph
My counter-response to the future David
17875 by: David
Cave Vandalized in Oregon
17876 by: Mark Minton
Re: NSS IO INFO MAY 2011 Issue 2
17877 by: Diana Tomchick
Just an experiment
17878 by: David
17879 by: Stefan Creaser
17881 by: Jim Kennedy
17882 by: David
17883 by: Mark Minton
17885 by: Mallory Mayeux
experiment update
17880 by: David
17884 by: caverarch
It was just an experiment, folks. Calm down.
17887 by: David
50th Anniversary CAVER now available.
17888 by: Carl Kunath
Opening Celebration of the National Cave and Karst Research Insitute building
17889 by: Geary Schindel
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. Every 100 years, leap year is skipped, except that every 400 years
(e.g. 2000) it is added back. Feb 29, 2000 was the second ever leap
century day. The next won't be until Feb 29, 2400.
Odd what random things I know, yet I can't remember what I had for
dinner last night.
CF
On 5/23/2011 7:50 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
. (Trivia question: Will 2100 be a leap year in our calendar?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's no one's fault. The sidereal year (fixed star to fixed star) is just a
wee bit longer than the corrected calendar year.
(I like how 365.256363 is simply NOT an integer!)
-WaV
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Chad Fenner
<[email protected]>wrote:
> Nope. Every 100 years, leap year is skipped, except that every 400 years
> (e.g. 2000) it is added back. Feb 29, 2000 was the second ever leap century
> day. The next won't be until Feb 29, 2400.
>
> Odd what random things I know, yet I can't remember what I had for dinner
> last night.
>
> CF
>
>
> On 5/23/2011 7:50 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
>
>> . (Trivia question: Will 2100 be a leap year in our calendar?)
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey it would be so unlike you to neglect this
http://kiddazle.com/redirect.php?to=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jbmJjNy5jb20vP3BpZD04OTc3Nzc=
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seriously?!
Don's iPhone.
Begin forwarded message:
> From: [email protected]
> Date: May 24, 2011 12:02:27 AM CDT
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Texascavers] hi
>
> Hey it would be so unlike you to neglect this
> http://kiddazle.com/redirect.php?to=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jbmJjNy5jb20vP3BpZD04OTc3Nzc=
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On behalf of NaturFest Association, I would like to announce that
NaturFest 2011 ( a.k.a. The East Texas Caver's Cookout ) was a huge success.
Many milestones were reached, this year.
Cavers from central Texas, north Texas, southeast Texas and deep east Texas were
there, and lots of caver socializing was done.
There was a delicious cook-out.
Also,
9 non-cavers, and 7 children got a small taste of what a major caver gathering
is like. This would not have been possible without the perseverance of
NaturFest Association.
[ It turned out that one of the non-cavers had done quite a bit
of caving in 1972 back in Illinois, and had interesting stories to tell
about passing thru tight squeezes in cold wet mud, and leaving the cave,
and hiking back to the cars in the freezing snow. ]
Better land-owner relations were developed that should seal this event for
next year, at this incredible campground.
We had an amazing party and concert Saturday night. Below is just one
song of dozens that were peformed. Even 2 cavers performed on the guitar,
one of which did a nice rendition of, "One Ton of Guano."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EscgKEAJqc&sns=fb
[ If NaturFest Association can confirm in advance next spring that
this will be one of the
scheduled activities for NaturFest 2012, than preparations can be made to make
the concert more fun ]
The weather Sunday was spectacular, and the kids really enjoyed the pool.
[ The pool was purchased by NaturFest Association and set up by
one member all by himself ( in the middle of the night in the rain, I
might add ). ]
This proved that next year, there must be a pool, and hopefully 2 pools or a
bigger pool.
Tons of excellent photos were taken and will hopefully be posted in the coming
days. Leonel Leyva deserves some credit here, as he makes money as a
photographer and seemed to know what he was doing.
Up until Saturday afternoon, all the entire work and financial burden
was done by
NaturFest Association. But by Saturday afternoon, everyone that
came was making
a great effort to help, and re-imburse NaturFest Association.
I would like to especially thank Guillermo Guerrero. Without him,
NaturFest would have
been just a picnic.
Thanks to 2 anonymous cavers for making donations, and thanks to
Dave McLung and Rick Corbell for making repairs to the pool.
The camp owner provided NaturFest Association with tons of hospitality.
( NaturFest Association had the entire camp for 4 days, with all the electricity
and water included in the fee ) Members of NaturFest Association got to camp
3 nights using the camp cabin, and one night in the woods.
Anyone that wanted to bicycle should have had the opportunity to do so.
The small pool was cold and relaxing and everyone who got in it was glad
they did.
After the cookout, we had tons of food left over, especially cold watermelon,
and soft-drinks.
NaturFest Association learned a few things during the planning, and de-rigging
of the event. This will make next years event much easier to plan.
I also had some personal milestones that were achieved:
I have been involved with caving activities for 27 years, and this was
the first time,
that my mom has ever participated in one. That was a big deal for
me. And most
of the cavers there got to meet my wonderful mother.
The event lost quite a bit of money, but that was all due to
unexpected things, some
of which will be fixed by next year.
Please mark your calendars, NaturFest 2012, for May 19th, 2012,
and tell your friends about it.
David Locklear
President of NaturFest Association
P.S.
If anyone would like to contribute financially to NaturFest Association, you
may do so by mailing a check to:
Bank of Brenham
501 S. Austin St.
Brenham, TX 77833
Make check payable to NaturFest Assciation, and put a note to deposit
in account: NaturFest Association
Our monthly expenses are $85 for storage of event stuff. And about $ 30
a month in gas. The expenses to put on NaturFest, are renting the campground,
putting down a deposit, and purchasing food, beverages, ice, propane, charcoal,
etc. And renting a U-haul truck in Brenham for the event, because
there are no
attendees with a truck that live within 1 1/2 hour of NaturFest.
For the past 2 years,
these expenses have been covered by one dedicated obsessed caver who insist
that NaturFest has great potential.
Feel free to forward this e-mail to other list-serves, or caving groups.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Thanks for the fine NaturFest. Company and food were great. Sorry Diane and
I could not stay longer. Hope to do it again next year.
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:14 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] NaturFest summary
On behalf of NaturFest Association, I would like to announce that
NaturFest 2011 ( a.k.a. The East Texas Caver's Cookout ) was a huge success.
Many milestones were reached, this year.
Cavers from central Texas, north Texas, southeast Texas and deep east Texas
were
there, and lots of caver socializing was done.
There was a delicious cook-out.
Also,
9 non-cavers, and 7 children got a small taste of what a major caver
gathering
is like. This would not have been possible without the perseverance of
NaturFest Association.
[ It turned out that one of the non-cavers had done quite a bit
of caving in 1972 back in Illinois, and had interesting stories to tell
about passing thru tight squeezes in cold wet mud, and leaving the cave,
and hiking back to the cars in the freezing snow. ]
Better land-owner relations were developed that should seal this event for
next year, at this incredible campground.
We had an amazing party and concert Saturday night. Below is just one
song of dozens that were peformed. Even 2 cavers performed on the guitar,
one of which did a nice rendition of, "One Ton of Guano."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EscgKEAJqc&sns=fb
[ If NaturFest Association can confirm in advance next spring that
this will be one of the
scheduled activities for NaturFest 2012, than preparations can be made to
make
the concert more fun ]
The weather Sunday was spectacular, and the kids really enjoyed the pool.
[ The pool was purchased by NaturFest Association and set up by
one member all by himself ( in the middle of the night in the rain, I
might add ). ]
This proved that next year, there must be a pool, and hopefully 2 pools or a
bigger pool.
Tons of excellent photos were taken and will hopefully be posted in the
coming
days. Leonel Leyva deserves some credit here, as he makes money as a
photographer and seemed to know what he was doing.
Up until Saturday afternoon, all the entire work and financial burden
was done by
NaturFest Association. But by Saturday afternoon, everyone that
came was making
a great effort to help, and re-imburse NaturFest Association.
I would like to especially thank Guillermo Guerrero. Without him,
NaturFest would have
been just a picnic.
Thanks to 2 anonymous cavers for making donations, and thanks to
Dave McLung and Rick Corbell for making repairs to the pool.
The camp owner provided NaturFest Association with tons of hospitality.
( NaturFest Association had the entire camp for 4 days, with all the
electricity
and water included in the fee ) Members of NaturFest Association got to
camp
3 nights using the camp cabin, and one night in the woods.
Anyone that wanted to bicycle should have had the opportunity to do so.
The small pool was cold and relaxing and everyone who got in it was glad
they did.
After the cookout, we had tons of food left over, especially cold
watermelon,
and soft-drinks.
NaturFest Association learned a few things during the planning, and
de-rigging
of the event. This will make next years event much easier to plan.
I also had some personal milestones that were achieved:
I have been involved with caving activities for 27 years, and this was
the first time,
that my mom has ever participated in one. That was a big deal for
me. And most
of the cavers there got to meet my wonderful mother.
The event lost quite a bit of money, but that was all due to
unexpected things, some
of which will be fixed by next year.
Please mark your calendars, NaturFest 2012, for May 19th, 2012,
and tell your friends about it.
David Locklear
President of NaturFest Association
P.S.
If anyone would like to contribute financially to NaturFest Association, you
may do so by mailing a check to:
Bank of Brenham
501 S. Austin St.
Brenham, TX 77833
Make check payable to NaturFest Assciation, and put a note to deposit
in account: NaturFest Association
Our monthly expenses are $85 for storage of event stuff. And about $ 30
a month in gas. The expenses to put on NaturFest, are renting the
campground,
putting down a deposit, and purchasing food, beverages, ice, propane,
charcoal,
etc. And renting a U-haul truck in Brenham for the event, because
there are no
attendees with a truck that live within 1 1/2 hour of NaturFest.
For the past 2 years,
these expenses have been covered by one dedicated obsessed caver who insist
that NaturFest has great potential.
Feel free to forward this e-mail to other list-serves, or caving groups.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To cavers realizing that was not David from the future,
Thank you for the support.
Unfortunately, many cavers did think I wrote that bizarre post, and it
caused them to think unkindly of me.
I am certain, that if this had happened to you or any other caver,
that you would have had mixed feelings
or even anger about it. Put yourself in my shoes, and think about
how you would have felt.
I am going to presume it was not malicious.
I tried to blow it off and not put any thought into it. I am sure
the writer, thought he was being funny,
and whoever he was ( certainly a member of the secretive cult group,
Texas Speleo-police ), but from what
I hear, some cavers did think it was either creative or funny.
To the anonymous writer, I can say,
What really really pissed me off about this, was the timing in which
it was posted.
I was in head-over heels busting my ass to put organize a great caver
gathering ( and doing the full brunt of the work by myself )
and I had to drop what I was doing to figure out what all the hoopla
on CaveTex was about. I found that to be a huge
distraction when I was trying so hard to persuade cavers to come to NaturFest.
Anyone who knows me well, would have known that was not me posting
that crap. For one thing, I doubt I will be
alive in 2035.
The future David, failed to mention that anthropologist discovered a
man on a remote Polynesian island still using e-mail in 2020.
Nor did he mention that the Islamic Republic of America burned all
caving books, in 2034, and that the First Church of Holy Kennedy
had gated the last known cave on the planet in 2029. He also didn't
mention that caving became such a liability that it was outlawed
entirely in nearly every karst region by local authorities in 2021,
and that in 2025, cavers were required to pay all expenses from
being rescued to the various first responders. He also didn't
mention that gas prices became so high in 2019, that cavers had to
sell their cars and ride their horses to go caving. The future
David, mocked the Great Zuckerberg. This
is sacrilegious. It would be like mocking Plato, or Aristotle.
Shame on the writer.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Vandals spray-painted and burned a cave in Deschutes
National Forest near Bend,
Oregon: <http://www.ktvz.com/news/27997080/detail.html>.
Mark Minton
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the end of this report is interesting information about WNS, be sure to take
a look at it.
Diana
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: [email protected]
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "Keith D. Wheeland" <[email protected]>
> Date: May 24, 2011 8:22:31 AM CDT
> To: undisclosed-recipients:;
> Subject: NSS IO INFO MAY 2011 Issue 2
> Reply-To: <[email protected]>
>
> Hi IO Contact,
>
> You are receiving this message because you are one the Contacts for your IO.
> Please make sure this message reaches the correct persons in your IO. Or
> distribute it to all members of your IO. This newsletter is a vital link in
> the communications chain within the NSS. This email is also being sent to
> those of you who who are on the supplemental mailing list maintained by the
> IO Committee.
>
> How to remove your name from this list: If you are a Contact for your IO and
> don't want that responsibility, please tell your IO officers. Your IO must
> make the change to the online record for it to take effect. Sorry I can't
> just unilaterally delete you. If you are on the supplemental list, I can
> remove your name. If you are unsure, send me a note listing your name and the
> email address to which this message was mailed. I will let you know whether I
> can remove your name or it has to be done by your IO. Please read the IO
> Committee web site www.caves.org/committee/i-o/ to learn more about the IO
> mailing list.
>
> There are five items in this issue
> 1) Safety & Techniques Research - Close calls
> 2) Should the Members Manual be made available online?
> 3) Karst-O-Rama coming up.
> 4) WNS Symposium in Little Rock - Report from Peter Youngbaer
> 5) Colorado BLM seeks public input for targeted closures. -
> http://www.blm.gov/co/st/en/fo/crvfo/scoping.html
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> 1) Safety & Techniques Research - Close calls
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hello to any and all who visit caves:
>
> The National Speleological Society (NSS) Safety and Techniques Committee is
> conducting a research project in conjunction with the Oakland University
> Occupational Safety and Health Program to determine the prevalence of close
> calls in caving. For the purposes of this research, "close call" will be
> defined as an event (planned or unplanned) in a cave that could have resulted
> in injury or fatality, but did not.
>
> Based on anonymous responses from participants, a database of cave-related
> "close-call" events will be established in order to identify the most
> prevalent likelihoods of illnesses, injuries, and fatalities that may occur
> from visiting caves. This information will be used in caver education and
> cave exploration planning in order to help cavers avoid conditions and acts
> that may lead to undesired events.
>
> Below is a link to the consent form of this questionnaire. If you chose to
> participate, please click the link and review the consent form.
> http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/407591/Safety-Close-Calls-in-Cave-Exploration-Cave-Science-and-Cave-Conservation
>
> Finally, please do forward this email and the above link to anyone who visits
> caves, to caving-related email lists, and to outdoor-related email lists, as
> you see fit.
>
> http://caves.org/safety/research.shtml
>
> thank you and best regards,
> Aaron Bird - Chair NSS Safety and Techniques Committee
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> 2) Should the Members Manual be made available online?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Discuss this topic in your IOs and be prepared to discuss it at the COG
> meeting at Convention. Bill Putnam offers this information to start the
> discussion.
>
> The information in the Members Manual is easily and safely distributed via
> the NSS web site. Much of the content is already present there (the
> organizational information, personnel information, contact information for
> officers, directors, committees, grottos, and IOs). The bulk of the remaining
> information is member contact information, most of which is accessible with
> the present member search capability of the web site. The remainder (email
> addresses and phone numbers) could easily be made available through a more
> secure “members only” page on the web site.
>
> It would not be difficult or expensive to set up a secure area on the web
> site where members could log in with a personal id and password to access
> detailed information of the types included in the MM. Unique individual
> user-ids can easily be generated from NSS numbers, and an initial password
> can be generated and emailed to each member at his or her email address of
> record. Those who do not have an email address can be sent the information by
> mail, and an announcement in the News can tell members how to request access
> if they do not receive either the electronic or paper communication of their
> login information.
>
> Primary access to the MM directory information should be through a searchable
> online directory, but it is also possible to create a downloadable PDF
> version, as we do with the Annual Report, and use features of Adobe Acrobat
> to prevent unauthorized printing and distribution.
>
> Finally, paper copies of the members manual can still be made available
> through the Bookstore to those who want to order them using a print-on-demand
> service. Print copies could be ordered through the bookstore web page, or by
> contacting the bookstore or officer staff by phone, fax, email, or regular
> mail. Pricing for the print copy should reflect the print cost plus shipping
> and handling costs, plus a small fee to cover the setup and support expenses
> for the service, I estimate this total combined cost to be on the order of
> $10, which is quite reasonable, in my opinion.
>
> All of this can be implemented at a very low - essential nominal - cost. I
> know this is the case, because I have the knowledge and skills to do it
> myself, and I know that our IT volunteers also have that capability. One need
> only look at the member support pages of other non-profits and professional
> organizations to find many example implementations that have been up and
> running successfully for years. We are way behind the curve in this matter,
> primarily due to the irrational fears of past Boards regarding dissemination
> of member email, phone, and address information. Those fears can easily be
> addressed, and the associated risks are easily mitigated.
>
> Since we produce an annual corporate report, as well as the MM, I feel we
> should also consider whether some of the content of the MM would be better
> placed in (or is already present in) the annual report. Both the MM and the
> annual report can and should be published on the web site, with distribution
> of the MM limited to members in good standing.
>
> Bill Putnam
> -------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> 3) Karst-O-Rama coming up.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Karst-o-Rama is June 16-19 at the Great Saltpetre Cave Preserve in Mt.
> Vernon, KY
> Activities include: Cave Trips, Hikes, Vertical Contest, Map Contest, Photo
> Contest, Educational Cave Tours, Programs, Geocaching, Kids Activities, Live
> Music and more! This year's theme is the 1980's and we will be having a
> costume contest at the start of the Saturday night party. Preregistration is
> open until June 1 at www.karstorama.com. Discounts on admission are valid
> until this date. Contact Brittany Fille at [email protected] for more
> information.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>4) WNS Symposium in Little Rock - Report from Peter Youngbaer
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Just returned from last week's WNS Symposium in Little Rock. About 150
> federal, state, academic, and NGO folks working on WNS attended, including a
> few European guests. FWIW, 14 attendees were NSS members, including a number
> of state officials.
>
> The first day and a half was dedicated to research update presentations. The
> two highlights here were: 1. 18 American bats were inoculated with the
> European Geomyces destructans; 18 American bats with the U.S. version; and 18
> control bats were left uninoculated. Both sets of inoculated bats developed
> WNS. This result gives strong support to the hypothesis of introduction from
> Europe. 2. Hazel Barton reported research from Kevin Keel that shows that 50
> degree Celcius water (122F) for 15 minutes kills Geomyces destructans. This
> is hotter than typical wash water, but less than boiling. It provides a
> non-chemical alternative for decon.
>
> The next day and a half was dedicated to working on the WNS National Plan
> (http://www.fws.gov/whitenosesyndrome/pdf/051711_FinalReleaseNationalPlan.pdf),
> which was announced and publicly released on the first day of the meeting.
> Attendees broke in to working groups as per the Plan, and began fleshing out
> implementation plans.
>
> Personally, I spent a half-day with the Disease Management working group,
> then split my time between the Recovery and Conservation Group/Species
> Recovery sub-group and a special session for state agency personnel. With
> this latter group, I was part of a panel presentation explaining the role of
> the NSS and our members/grottos etc. helping with hibernacula identification,
> public education, and caver education.
>
> Lots of networking time, too, to catch up with folks we've funded and worked
> with across the country.
>
> Some observations:
>
> 1. Most western state officials attending recognized that the USFS Region 2
> actions were not helpful, and didn't want to duplicate them. NPS and BLM
> folks spoke positively about the roles cavers have played and continue to
> play. They and the state folks are skeptical about cave closures, but still
> feeling pressure from the feds. I spent a couple hours conversing with the
> Colorado Division of Wildlife Species Coordinator, Tina Jackson, who had
> positive things to say about the Convention organizers. She is a little
> [concerned] about having so many cavers descend (ascend?)at once, but I
> assured her we've done this before. Again, she seemed very much pleased with
> the convention planning.
>
> 2. The Disease Management researchers and field managers seemed to grow
> increasingly pessimistic about finding any sort of cure, treatment, or magic
> managerial bullet for stopping WNS. Further, there is a serious concern about
> a shortage of bats for research, and it is likely that some researchers will
> be denied access.
>
> 3. Management seems to be shifting to Conservation and Recovery. How can
> species be preserved? What field techniques can be applied to assist
> survivorship, such as habitat manipulation? An example of this was described
> by Tom Kunz, Boston University, for maternity colonies. Used to be that we
> would see fairly large (500+ animals) roosts that were able to generate a lot
> of heat, which is necessary for successful birth, lactation, and juvenile
> growth. Now, with maternity colonies so small, he's found that the addition
> of wooden baffles in the ceilings of barns, sheds, etc. can concentrate heat
> and help smaller maternity colonies be more successful.
>
> 4. There is still a lot of talk about artificial hibernacula, as well as
> captive breeding colonies. Re the former, Cory Holliday's Tennessee
> underground project is on its way to being built, with more than half the
> funds raised. Re the captive colonies, my suspicion is that lack of funding
> will limit and experiments in that regard.
>
> 5. Regarding funding, it was announced that $1.9 million of USFWS funding was
> being made available from this year's base appropriation. This is NOT
> congressional action, but simply USFWS taking money away from other things
> within its reduced budget. Next year's budget is clearly looking worse, but
> that's what we've been working on in DC. This $1.9 million will be spread out
> to the states in an as-yet-to-be announced format. However, spread among 27
> states, this is about $70,000 per state - which won't really do much more
> than pay for some staff time for monitoring and surveillance. Funding
> realities will be the biggest damper on national Plan activities, and
> severely limit research.
>
> 6. Species listing: there were two impromptu sessions on species listing, one
> for the Northeast, where states are in various stages of listing certain
> species, and a second where one USFWS official (T.J.Miller) was leading an
> effort to have national listing of all hibernating bat species. That was the
> subject of serious debate, with many people opposing that approach. Reasons
> given ranged from not enough information on various bat species, to
> unnecessarily riling up opponents, such as the western timber industry, to
> taking attention away from the importance of regional or national listing of
> the Little Brown Bat, which is arguably the most seriously affected and the
> one species for which the case could be made.
>
> 7. Another state is about to announce WNS, but the information is embargoed
> until the official press release.
>
> Lots more details, of course, but I thought I'd give you this brief summary.
>
> Peter Youngbaer NSS WNS Liaison
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Keith
>
> --
> Keith D. Wheeland, NSS 2878
> NSS Board Member and Chair of NSS IO Committee
> 2191 Mt. View Ave.
> State College, PA 16801-7214
> 814-238-2057
> [email protected] (Use this forwarding address in your address book)
> IO Website - www.caves.org/committee/i-o/
> Annual Report& Updates- www.nssio.org
>
>
________________________________
UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The idea below is to give Facebook fanatics
an avenue to discuss things "in detail" more privately that can't be
discussed publicly.
Below are links to a list of 10 Facebook Groups specifically for
cavers in Texas:
CaveTex - Newbie Caving Trips:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_203864502982348
CaveTex - Cave-related News:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_131766490234641
CaveTex - TCR:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_105232652902115
CaveTex - Hydrogeology:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_105264919563976
CaveTex - Robber Baron Project:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_214771498544581
CaveTex - WNS:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_132085480203390
CaveTex - Colorado Bend Project:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_132085480203390
CaveTex - Bustamante:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_105246996233625
CaveTex - Border Crossing News:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_131779340233890
CaveTex - Kiwi Sink Dig:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_163901513672524
If you join these groups you will be bombarded with messages and photos,
from this group. But all you have to do is click "hide" next to the message
when it pops up and you won't receive future pop-ups from the group, but
instead will have to click on that group to get updates.
If Facebook cavers ( the upcoming generation of cavers especially ) will use
these links, then more people can learn about caves and caving and even
go underground more often, as they will have all of this detailed info with
them at the cave entrance on their smartphone.
Long Live Zuckerberg.
R.I.P. Texas Speleo-Police.
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
There is no reason any of this stuff cannot be discussed on CaveTex, if it's on
Facebook it's probably more public than you think, it's certainly not going to
be private...
Also, if you have a smartphone then you can 'dial up' CaveTex emails and read
'em. You don't need *another* way to access this information.
I *know* you're not going to listen but think about this... You know where I
work, and we're at least partially responsible for this smartphone/web 2.0
stuff, I >may< have some idea about it all. We have *multiple* internal systems
for storing or accessing information here; do you know what peoples most common
complaint is? THERE ARE TOO MANY SYSTEMS, WHERE DOES ONE GO TO LOOK UP WHAT YOU
NEED TO KNOW?!
We (used to) have a slogan: KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.
My 2p.
Stefan
-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 12:28 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Just an experiment
The idea below is to give Facebook fanatics
an avenue to discuss things "in detail" more privately that can't be
discussed publicly.
Below are links to a list of 10 Facebook Groups specifically for
cavers in Texas:
CaveTex - Newbie Caving Trips:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_203864502982348
CaveTex - Cave-related News:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_131766490234641
CaveTex - TCR:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_105232652902115
CaveTex - Hydrogeology:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_105264919563976
CaveTex - Robber Baron Project:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_214771498544581
CaveTex - WNS:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_132085480203390
CaveTex - Colorado Bend Project:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_132085480203390
CaveTex - Bustamante:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_105246996233625
CaveTex - Border Crossing News:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_131779340233890
CaveTex - Kiwi Sink Dig:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_163901513672524
If you join these groups you will be bombarded with messages and photos,
from this group. But all you have to do is click "hide" next to the message
when it pops up and you won't receive future pop-ups from the group, but
instead will have to click on that group to get updates.
If Facebook cavers ( the upcoming generation of cavers especially ) will use
these links, then more people can learn about caves and caving and even
go underground more often, as they will have all of this detailed info with
them at the cave entrance on their smartphone.
Long Live Zuckerberg.
R.I.P. Texas Speleo-Police.
David Locklear
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What Stef said! Right on!
And I guess that now I'll have to get online and unsubscribe myself from a
bunch more unnecessary Facebook groups that I was signed up for. And David, as
the TSA Colorado Bend State Park Project coordinator, I formally ask you to
please remove your Facebook CBSP site. Thank you.
Jim
On May 24, 2011, at 12:58 PM, "Stefan Creaser" <[email protected]> wrote:
> David,
>
> There is no reason any of this stuff cannot be discussed on CaveTex, if it's
> on Facebook it's probably more public than you think, it's certainly not
> going to be private...
>
> Also, if you have a smartphone then you can 'dial up' CaveTex emails and read
> 'em. You don't need *another* way to access this information.
>
>
> I *know* you're not going to listen but think about this... You know where I
> work, and we're at least partially responsible for this smartphone/web 2.0
> stuff, I >may< have some idea about it all. We have *multiple* internal
> systems for storing or accessing information here; do you know what peoples
> most common complaint is? THERE ARE TOO MANY SYSTEMS, WHERE DOES ONE GO TO
> LOOK UP WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW?!
>
> We (used to) have a slogan: KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid.
>
> My 2p.
>
> Stefan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I said, it was just an experiment. The site Jim mentioned was
immediately deleted less than 15 minutes after it was created. I was
only trying to show
a few cavers what it was I was experimenting with.
What I am getting at and that nobody is listening, is that young
potential cavers ( in general ) will not use listserves. They don't
want to be bombarded with
e-mails about WNS, Cave geology, gating caves, or any of the other
so-called real caving stuff.
The age of the average CaveTex user is getting older and older, and it
will die, whether or not I am posting anything.
The majority of cavers in Texas ( around 1,000 ) don't want to have
anything to do with CaveTex.
I did not ruin CaveTex. Lots of other cavers have posted things
that 99 % of us did not want to receive.
I emphasize that Facebook is just a fad, like the pet rock. But it
has potential for the time-being to educate potential cavers.
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
If anyone is not listeneing, it is you! Plenty of young
people use list serves, just like plenty of older people use
Facebook. They are not mutually exclusive. Of course the average
age of Texascavers posters is getting older. The average age of
cavers in general, indeed the entire U. S. population, is getting
older. So what? It's not that older people will not adopt new
technology. Most of us "older" cavers were around way before list
serves, and we had no trouble adopting them. Same with cell
phones. Facebook just has too many disadvantages for many of
us. Give it a rest!
Mark Minton
At 02:20 PM 5/24/2011, David wrote:
As I said, it was just an experiment. The site Jim mentioned was
immediately deleted less than 15 minutes after it was created. I was
only trying to show
a few cavers what it was I was experimenting with.
What I am getting at and that nobody is listening, is that young
potential cavers ( in general ) will not use listserves. They don't
want to be bombarded with
e-mails about WNS, Cave geology, gating caves, or any of the other
so-called real caving stuff.
The age of the average CaveTex user is getting older and older, and it
will die, whether or not I am posting anything.
The majority of cavers in Texas ( around 1,000 ) don't want to have
anything to do with CaveTex.
I did not ruin CaveTex. Lots of other cavers have posted things
that 99 % of us did not want to receive.
I emphasize that Facebook is just a fad, like the pet rock. But it
has potential for the time-being to educate potential cavers.
David Locklear
Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't want to beat this dead horse into the ground, but as a so-called
"young caver" I felt the need to put in my .02.
I like the Cavetex listserv. I also like Facebook. But I want to keep the
two separate. There are places (such as my office) where it would be very
innappropriate to be seen surfing facebook, but pulling up my Gmail account
a few times a day, checking email, and responding to email isn't a big deal.
Getting cavetex emails isn't an inconvenience...in fact, it's easier. I DO
care about WNS, geology, caving gates, etc, but if I don't, or if an email
is boring, I can just delete that one message, instead of "blocking" a whole
group or category.
Also, facebook has too many distractions! I get invited to lots of events--I
don't want caving trips lumped in with birthday parties, concerts, group
events, and all the other "events" I get invited to on facebook. I don't
care about most of those--I do care about caving trip invites, tho, and
don't want to miss them! Also, on Facebook, news can get lost in a mix of
random information. I check my "news feed" to see what everyone is doing,
and then quickly surf through a few profiles I typically check. I *might*
look at friends' pictures (you know who you are, since you are on cavetex as
well, fellow "young cavers"). :) But I honestly think serious news would be
lost in the chaos of 600+ "friends" and their updates.
The major problem I personally have with cavetex is that very few people
actually post invitations to trips! Crash, I know you do, and I know a
handful of others do, but cavers, if you have room on caving trips, please
let everyone know! We in Houston are desperate to get underground, and are
actively looking for opportunities to do so. Please let us know about
trips--we'd all love to come!
-Mallory Mayeux
GHG Secretary, and bona-fide "young caver"
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 1:20 PM, David <[email protected]> wrote:
> As I said, it was just an experiment. The site Jim mentioned was
> immediately deleted less than 15 minutes after it was created. I was
> only trying to show
> a few cavers what it was I was experimenting with.
>
> What I am getting at and that nobody is listening, is that young
> potential cavers ( in general ) will not use listserves. They don't
> want to be bombarded with
> e-mails about WNS, Cave geology, gating caves, or any of the other
> so-called real caving stuff.
>
> The age of the average CaveTex user is getting older and older, and it
> will die, whether or not I am posting anything.
>
> The majority of cavers in Texas ( around 1,000 ) don't want to have
> anything to do with CaveTex.
>
> I did not ruin CaveTex. Lots of other cavers have posted things
> that 99 % of us did not want to receive.
>
> I emphasize that Facebook is just a fad, like the pet rock. But it
> has potential for the time-being to educate potential cavers.
>
> David Locklear
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you click on that link, you will see 17 groups related to common
CaveTex topics.
( You can only view the link below if you have a Facebook account. )
http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q=CaveTex&init=quick&tas=0.3905081716366112&type=groups
If a group interest you, then give it a try, by joining that group.
It takes about 20 seconds to create a group like these, so many more can
be quickly created. It is easy to search Facebook for these groups if you
know what you are looking for.
Also, the link previously posted for Colorado Bend should have been:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_228084757202507
David Locklear
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David, I'm afraid that Stefan was right when he said that it was unlikely that
you would pay attention to his e-mail. I happened to read your second e-mail
(below) before I read Stefan's, and I was already shaking in my caving boots at
the comment that "it only takes 20 seconds to create a Facebook group." As a
caver who happens to use and like Facebook, I pictured groups spawning like
rabbits on every conceivable scientific, geographical, explorational, social,
psyco-sexual, theological, ethical, literary, and so on topic in caves and
caving (at least in Texas). Each is endowed by it Creator with largely
overlapping memberships of people many of whom are already friends in real life
as well as on Facebook.
Yes, I exaggerate. But what is the point of all these groups? What are they
good for - especially when something simple and that works is already in place?
Stephan's key point (I hope) was that the more that systems multiply and
become more complex, the harder it potentially becomes to find the specific bit
of information that you are looking for. Or even to decide where to post
something. "Hmm... This is a dig project in a cave in the Edwards Aquifer.
Where should I post an announcement? Digs? Obviously. Hydrology? Probably?
Trips? Certainly!" With the result that the same bit of news gets announced
multiply on all these lists and the list notification e-mails clog our
mailboxes - until we change the settings to the point that we get no more
notifications at all, and then nobody knowns what's happening after all.
Regards,
Roger Moore
-----Original Message-----
From: David <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 1:01 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] experiment update
If you click on that link, you will see 17 groups related to common
CaveTex topics.
( You can only view the link below if you have a Facebook account. )
http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q=CaveTex&init=quick&tas=0.3905081716366112&type=groups
If a group interest you, then give it a try, by joining that group.
It takes about 20 seconds to create a group like these, so many more can
be quickly created. It is easy to search Facebook for these groups if you
know what you are looking for.
Also, the link previously posted for Colorado Bend should have been:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_228084757202507
David Locklear
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, I am sounding arrogant and hard-headed in my e-mails, but that
is not the case.
I can delete the Facebook groups I described at the push of a button.
But I would like the
Facebook users out there to look at it before I delete them. Maybe
the idea can be tweeked,
or at least discussed civilly.
In fact, even if you thought the idea was brilliant, I could delete
the groups out of spite or
for whatever reason.
Some of you will be surprised to learn, that I can create a Facebook
group, for example,
"Join Al Kaeda," and create dozens of fake members all wearing turbans
and named Ali
Kaleb Jr., then I would make you the administrator of the group, using
the same method
the anonymous caver used to defame me, last week on CaveTex. Then
it could be broadcasted
out to the whole world, and then I could unjoin the group, leaving you
as only real member
and leader of the legions of members on Al Kaeda on Facebook. Does
that leave you
shaking in your muddy cave boots ? Any teenager could do it, and
probably already has.
The problem with CaveTex is that people don't want to be bombarded
with e-mails, so it
makes a stagnant situation for new ideas. The only ideas that get
heard are those
of the Texas Speleo-Police ( here-in, May 24th, 2011, known as, TSP ).
The other
problems are the people like the one that told me to "go away."
They lurk on listservs,
but never say anything that is interesting. And, another problem is
that newbies are
scared to say anything, especially that they went in
a cave without the permission of the TSP.
David Locklear
moving to Facebook sooner than you think
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings Texas cavers!
In the midst of numerous and sometimes tedious postings about Raptures, Maya
calendars, NaturFests, Facebook, and others of a similar nature, permit me to
interject an item directly on topic and of interest to most readers of this
list serve:
The special 50th Anniversary issue of the Texas Caver is now available!
Printed copies have been delivered to Texas and should be distributed in the
very near future.
Meanwhile, the digital version has been posted to the TSA website in the
Member's Area. Go to
http://www.cavetexas.org/index.html and use your member login.
In this instance, you have a choice of three versions, differing only in the
size of the file.
The smallest version is rather heavily compressed and the graphics are
consequently of somewhat lower quality. However, if you're not fussy about
quality or if you have a slower Internet connection or limited disk space, this
may be your choice.
The medium version is about what you are used to seeing posted for such things
and will be adequate for most readers.
The largest version (this is what was used for the printed copies) is of
substantially higher quality and will produce a very high quality viewing
experience and an excellent quality paper copy if you have a good printer.
This was a major project and I thank all those who made the effort to
contribute toward the success of this publication.
Good caving and better days ahead!
===Carl Kunath
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
For those that haven't heard, The National Cave and Karst Research Institute
had their opening celebration for their new headquarters in Carlsbad, New
Mexico. The event occurred on Saturday, May 14 and was attended by a host of
dignitaries including George Veni, Dale Pate, Jack Hess, Jim Goodbar, Ron
Green, Hazel Medville, Dale Janway (Mayor of Carlsbad), New Mexico State
Senator Vernon Asbill, and Bert Frost (NPS), In addition, David Steensen,
(NPS), John Heaton (N.M. Congressman), Richard Cervantes (NMT), Bob Forrest
(former Mayor of Carlsbad), and James Greer (President of Greer Construction),
Jessie Richardson (VPI) were on hand. Jim Goodbar and Ron Kerbo cut the cave
cake marking the opening of the building. In addition, Jack Hess (Executive
Director of GSA), Debbie Buecher (Wildlife Biologist accompanied by two bats
and her husband Bob), myself and Penny Boston were invited lecturers.
The event was attended by more than 300 people and included a number of cavers
(Pat Seiser, Mark Joop, and Bob Buecher come to mind) and volunteers and the
wonderful NCKRI staff (Lewis Land, Dianne Gillespie, Debbie Herr, and Ann
Doudy). There were some really nice exhibits from the various sponsors and
founding partners including an inflatable cave. George Veni, as the Executive
Director did a really great job. Everyone has moved in to their new offices
and are hard at work. In addition, Penny Boston is in Socorro, New Mexico at
NMT and is also part of the NCKRI team. Kevin Stafford, professor at Stephen
Austin was also present and received an award for his contributions to NCKRI.
I know George, Lewis, Dianne, Debbie, and Ann worked really hard getting the
building prepared for opening day.
The Founding Partners, the NPS, New Mexico Tech, and the City of Carlsbad, were
all well represented.
The new NCKRI building is really outstanding. It includes an bat roost,
statute of Jim White, rigging for vertical practice, nice offices, lots of
green features, conference and educational rooms. A library and bookstore will
be added to the facility as it develops.
Pardon me if I've left anyone out. It was a good time had by all.
Geary
Geary M. Schindel, P.G.
Chief Technical Officer
EDWARDS AQUIFER
A U T H O R I T Y
1615 N. ST. MARY'S STREET
SAN ANTONIO, TX 78215
(210) 222.2204 OFFICE
(210) 299.5262 FAX
(210) 326.1576 MOBILE
--- End Message ---
