texascavers Digest 5 Jun 2011 03:59:30 -0000 Issue 1327

Sat, 4 Jun 2011 21:05:07 -0700 (PDT) 

texascavers Digest 5 Jun 2011 03:59:30 -0000 Issue 1327

Topics (messages 17975 through 17990):

Bats in a wall...
        17975 by: John P Brooks

casto hole
        17976 by: Cynthia Lee
        17980 by: Keith Goggin
        17981 by: Mark Minton
        17982 by: Cynthia Lee
        17983 by: Geary Schindel

Re: Polypropylene rope and caving history
        17977 by: Rod Goke

Re: Glow in the Dark Rope for caving?
        17978 by: Dale Barnard

Re: fluorescent rope
        17979 by: Keith Goggin
        17984 by: Mark Minton

polypropylene
        17985 by: Mixon Bill
        17986 by: Logan McNatt
        17987 by: Rod Goke
        17988 by: Rod Goke

Re: LowGun's glow-in-the-dark quest
        17989 by: Rod Goke

new book on rock art of Coahuila
        17990 by: Logan McNatt

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message --- 
How unusual..... Bats were found in an old building:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_localdallas/20110602/ts_yblog_localdallas/thousands-of-bats-invade-walls-of-historic-cleburne-building?bouchon=623,tx

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Have any of you ever heard of a cave called Casto Hole located in Limber
Ridge at Statts Mill in Jackson Co. WVA?
Cindy Lee

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I'm sure you've already seen these, but some links are below.  Jackson County, 
WV has no cave-bearing limestone that I'm aware of, so it's not likely that 
it's 
much more than a sandstone shelter, although there are a few caves in spalled 
ridgetop sandstones that have becove covered between the blocks and form fairly 
substantial pseudokarst.  I've never been to Jackson County, though, so I can't 
confirm that's what's going on there...could be a river cut as well I guess.

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=38856

http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/1008

http://www.google.com/search?q=Casto+Hole+located+in+Limber+Ridge+at+Statts+Mill+in+Jackson+Co.+WVA&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1





________________________________
From: Cynthia Lee <[email protected]>
To: Texas Cavers <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, June 3, 2011 12:15:53 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] casto hole

Have any of you ever heard of a cave called Casto Hole located in Limber Ridge 
at Statts Mill in Jackson Co. WVA?
Cindy Lee

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The only information I can find about Casto Hole is in Civil War history and a song. As Keith said, Jackson County is not in the limestone areas of WV. The entire county is not mentioned in Davies' "Caverns of West Virginia" nor in any of the many WVASS bulletins. Bulletin 3 is "Index to the Literature Pertaining to West Virginia Caves and Karst" (1974) and neither the county nor the cave are mentioned there either. I also suspect that it is not a real cave. Maybe it was a mine or a rock shelter. 

Mark Minton

At 10:25 AM 6/3/2011, Keith Goggin wrote:
I'm sure you've already seen these, but some links are below. Jackson County, WV has no cave-bearing limestone that I'm aware of, so it's not likely that it's much more than a sandstone shelter, although there are a few caves in spalled ridgetop sandstones that have becove covered between the blocks and form fairly substantial pseudokarst. I've never been to Jackson County, though, so I can't confirm that's what's going on there...could be a river cut as well I guess. 

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=38856

http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/1008

http://www.google.com/search?q=Casto+Hole+located+in+Limber+Ridge+at+Statts+Mill+in+Jackson+Co.+WVA&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

From: Cynthia Lee <[email protected]>
To: Texas Cavers <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, June 3, 2011 12:15:53 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] casto hole
Have any of you ever heard of a cave called Casto Hole located in Limber Ridge at Statts Mill in Jackson Co. WVA? 
Cindy Lee


Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks, everyone. I know about the ballad. I was curious if this was a real
cave.
cindy

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Mark Minton <[email protected]> wrote:

>        The only information I can find about Casto Hole is in Civil War
> history and a song.  As Keith said, Jackson County is not in the limestone
> areas of WV.  The entire county is not mentioned in Davies' "Caverns of West
> Virginia" nor in any of the many WVASS bulletins.  Bulletin 3 is "Index to
> the Literature Pertaining to West Virginia Caves and Karst" (1974) and
> neither the county nor the cave are mentioned there either.  I also suspect
> that it is not a real cave.  Maybe it was a mine or a rock shelter.
>
> Mark Minton
>
>
> At 10:25 AM 6/3/2011, Keith Goggin wrote:
>
>> I'm sure you've already seen these, but some links are below.  Jackson
>> County, WV has no cave-bearing limestone that I'm aware of, so it's not
>> likely that it's much more than a sandstone shelter, although there are a
>> few caves in spalled ridgetop sandstones that have becove covered between
>> the blocks and form fairly substantial pseudokarst.  I've never been to
>> Jackson County, though, so I can't confirm that's what's going on
>> there...could be a river cut as well I guess.
>>
>> http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=38856
>>
>> http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/1008
>>
>>
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=Casto+Hole+located+in+Limber+Ridge+at+Statts+Mill+in+Jackson+Co.+WVA&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1
>>
>> From: Cynthia Lee <[email protected]>
>> To: Texas Cavers <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Fri, June 3, 2011 12:15:53 AM
>> Subject: [Texascavers] casto hole
>>
>> Have any of you ever heard of a cave called Casto Hole located in Limber
>> Ridge at Statts Mill in Jackson Co. WVA?
>> Cindy Lee
>>
>
> Please reply to [email protected]
> Permanent email address is [email protected]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Cyndy,


Here is what John Tudek at WVU sent me.  Interesting, my mom grew up on the Tug 
Fork in West Virginia.  There are some large sandstone shelter  cave or as John 
said, it could be a talus or tectonic cave.

Geary



The Jackson county geology book has this to say about it:

"The famous Casto Hole is on this fork (Tug Fork). This hole was located in one 
of the rugged cliffs along Tug fork and afforded a hidding place for men who 
concealed themselves whenever a drafting or recruiting officer of the army was 
in the county during the Civil War of 1861 65 according to statements as given 
by the residents of the county. Tug fork has several branches flowing both 
north and south among which are the following Buffalo run Grassy run Straight 
run Alum Rock run Laurel run Beech run Upper Big run Laurel fork and Grass Lick 
creek"

so it could likely be talus or tectonic. those can go a few hundred feet too :)
John Tudek


From: Cynthia Lee [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 10:35 AM
To: Mark Minton
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] casto hole

Thanks, everyone. I know about the ballad. I was curious if this was a real 
cave.
cindy
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Mark Minton 
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
       The only information I can find about Casto Hole is in Civil War history 
and a song.  As Keith said, Jackson County is not in the limestone areas of WV. 
 The entire county is not mentioned in Davies' "Caverns of West Virginia" nor 
in any of the many WVASS bulletins.  Bulletin 3 is "Index to the Literature 
Pertaining to West Virginia Caves and Karst" (1974) and neither the county nor 
the cave are mentioned there either.  I also suspect that it is not a real 
cave.  Maybe it was a mine or a rock shelter.

Mark Minton


At 10:25 AM 6/3/2011, Keith Goggin wrote:
I'm sure you've already seen these, but some links are below.  Jackson County, 
WV has no cave-bearing limestone that I'm aware of, so it's not likely that 
it's much more than a sandstone shelter, although there are a few caves in 
spalled ridgetop sandstones that have becove covered between the blocks and 
form fairly substantial pseudokarst.  I've never been to Jackson County, 
though, so I can't confirm that's what's going on there...could be a river cut 
as well I guess.

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=38856

http://www.wvencyclopedia.org/articles/1008

http://www.google.com/search?q=Casto+Hole+located+in+Limber+Ridge+at+Statts+Mill+in+Jackson+Co.+WVA&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

From: Cynthia Lee <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
To: Texas Cavers 
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Fri, June 3, 2011 12:15:53 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] casto hole

Have any of you ever heard of a cave called Casto Hole located in Limber Ridge 
at Statts Mill in Jackson Co. WVA?
Cindy Lee

Please reply to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Permanent email address is 
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

At one time, cavers did use polypropylene ropes to some degree, primarily for prusik knots. When I first started caving in 1968, most cavers in our grotto ascended with prusik knots instead of mechanical ascenders. Jumars existed, but they were too expensive for most of us university student cavers. Also, some rope owners thought that the teeth on a Jumar cam would cause excessive rope wear or that squeezing a rope between the cam and the housing of a Jumar might cause internal rope damage, so they preferred that other cavers use knots instead of Jumars when climbing on their ropes. Static caving ropes did not exist yet, so we used either Goldline or Samson nylon ropes as our primary climbing ropes. It was a time when cavers still made most of their own climbing gear, and much experimentation and innovation was being done by individual cavers, rather than by commercial manufacturers of caving equipment (since there were practically no commercial manufacturers of caving equipment back then).

Cavers tried a variety of different materials for prusik knots. Nylon was the strongest option available (since kevlar and Spectra did not exist yet), but nylon prusiks had a reputation for being hard to loosen, and some people expressed reservations about the abrasion potential of nylon prusik rope against nylon climbing rope. Polypropylene was favored by some for prusik rope, since it tended to slide more easily against itself, making the knots easier to loosen. Most of the polypropylene ropes we could find, however, were hollow braided, a construction which allowed the prusik rope to flatten against the climbing rope more than would be the case with solid braided rope or laid rope. This flattening had the undesirable property that it sometimes allowed neighboring turns of a prusik knot to creep over each other and distort the knot. We usually couldn't find any solid braided polypropylene rope, but I did find some solid braided anchor line (sold for use with boat anchors). This anchor line seemed to perform well for prusik knots, and, if I remember correctly, it was made of polyethylene.

I still had some reservations about the strength (and, hence, safety) of either polypropylene or polyethylene in comparison with nylon, so, for my chest prusik (the knot most crucial for safety), I threaded a length of 1/4" nylon rope through the inside of a similar length of hollow braided polypropylene rope, resulting in a double braided rope with a polypropylene sheath surrounding a nylon core. I did this by first pushing the hollow polypropylene rope onto a metal rod, such that the rod was threaded through the hollow rope. This rod actually was a long gun cleaning rod with a convenient attachment at one end, resembling the eye of a large needle. Then I attached the nylon rope to the end of this rod and pushed the hollow rope off the rod and onto the nylon rope. You might say that the rod was used to pull the nylon rope through the polypropylene rope, but it's actually more accurate say that the poly rope was pushed onto the nylon, because hollow braided rope behaves like a Chinese finger trap. You can push it onto something, but pulling only causes it to bind and refuse to slip. This was one case where it really did work better to "push a rope".  :-)

This hybrid rope combined the strength of a nylon core with the comparatively slick surface of a polypropylene sheath for a knot that was both strong and relatively easy to loosen. Additionally the round nylon core prevented the hollow braided polypropylene sheath from flattening. I used it for my chest prusik in a classical 3 knot prusik system and used the solid braided polyethylene "anchor line" rope for my two foot prusiks (where strength was less critical). Subsequently, we began experimenting with so called "ascender knots" in place of traditional prusiks and then with Gibbs ascenders, homemade chest pulley boxes, and several evolving generations of "rope walker" systems. The unusual nylon/polypropylene hybrid rope, however, was something I remembered as working well for its time as a rope for the classic prusik knot (even though it didn't glow in the dark).

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton
Sent: Jun 2, 2011 9:30 PM
To: [email protected], Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Glow in the Dark Rope for caving?

There's a reason cavers do not use polypropylene rope
(basically water-ski rope). It has low strength and low abrasion
resistance relative to nylon or polyester. (It does float, however,
which can be valuable in river caves.) The fluorescent property is
not inherent in polypropylene, though, so presumably other types of
rope could also be made to glow in the dark. Still, it would be of
minimal utility. If a caving trip lasted more than 6 hours (likely),
then the rope would no longer be glowing by the time a team got back
to it (or used it in the first place).

Mark

At 09:39 PM 6/2/2011, Logan McNatt wrote:
>Some of you probably have seen this before, but I had not until a
>Memorial Day visit to Harbor Freight Tools.
>
>"This 100% polypropylene rope includes fluorescent material that can
>be charged with either natural or artificial light and will then
>glow for up to 5 hours when placed in the dark.
>Fluorescent material can be re-charged as often as needed for up to 6 months.
>Perfect for backyard trip hazards, caves, underwater, tent
>tie-downs, and campground perimeter markers.
>Diamond-braid minimizes stretch for long life and durability.
>Resistant to abrasion, gas-oil, mildew, and chemicals."
>
>3/16" x 50 ft for $2.99; 70 lb "safe working load"
>1/4" x 50 ft for $3.99. 90 lb "safe working load"
>
>Not recommended for cavers over 70 to 90 lbs, or for pits over 50 ft deep.
>
>One advantage is being able to see where the rope ends.
>
>LowGun ;-)

Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Someone had some of that glow-in-the-dark rope from Harbor Freight out at
the Kerrville Folk Festival last year. It looked great for  the first few
days, but then basically stopped glowing much at all. It was outside exposed
to the sun being used to hold down tents and shade canopies.

Dale

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
The dolphins are safe!  A fluorescent material glows under a UV lamp, but stops 
glowing as soon as the lamp is turned off. A phosphorescent material keeps 
glowing for a while afterwards.

;-)




________________________________
From: John P Brooks <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>; Mixon Bill 
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 10:59:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope


You better go kill a dolphin...you were wrong:


"Fluorescence is the emission of light by a substance that has absorbed light 
or 
other electromagnetic radiation of a different wavelength. [1]. It is a form of 
luminescence. In most cases, emitted light has a longer wavelength, and 
therefore lower energy, than the absorbed radiation. However, when the absorbed 
electromagnetic radiation is intense, it is possible for one electron to absorb 
two photons; this two-photon absorption can lead to emission of radiation 
having 
a shorter wavelength than the absorbed radiation.
The most striking examples of fluorescence occur when the absorbed radiation is 
in the ultraviolet region of the spectrum, and thus invisible, and the emitted 
light is in the visible region.
Fluorescence has many practical applications, including mineralogy, gemology, 
chemical sensors (Fluorescence spectroscopy), fluorescent labelling, dyes, 
biological detectors, and, most commonly, fluorescent lamps."

--- On Thu, 6/2/11, Mixon Bill <[email protected]> wrote:


>From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
>Subject: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope
>To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
>Date: Thursday, June 2, 2011, 10:26 PM
>
>
>Something that can be charged up in light and then will glow for six hours is 
>phosphorescent, not fluorescent. Sheesh!.--Bill Mixon, fussy editor
>----------------------------------------
>No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail.
>----------------------------------------
>You may "reply" to the address this message
>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>Personal: [email protected]
>AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
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>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I remember using polypropylene prusik rope as well. Tenstron was the preferred brand.
Keith is correct. The physical mechanisms behind fluorescence and phosphorescence are different. Fluorescence occurs by quantum-mechanically allowed transitions within the electronic states of the material and happens essentially instantaneously. Phosphorescence involves a so-called "forbidden" electronic transition, which can still happen but is very much slower. 

Mark

At 10:04 AM 6/3/2011, Keith Goggin wrote:
The dolphins are safe! A fluorescent material glows under a UV lamp, but stops glowing as soon as the lamp is turned off. A phosphorescent material keeps glowing for a while afterwards. 

;-)

From: John P Brooks <[email protected]>
To: Cavers Texas <[email protected]>; Mixon Bill <[email protected]> 
Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 10:59:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope

You better go kill a dolphin...you were wrong:
"Fluorescence is the emission of light by a substance that has absorbed light or other electromagnetic radiation of a different wavelength. [1]. It is a form of luminescence. In most cases, emitted light has a longer wavelength, and therefore lower energy, than the absorbed radiation. However, when the absorbed electromagnetic radiation is intense, it is possible for one electron to absorb two photons; this two-photon absorption can lead to emission of radiation having a shorter wavelength than the absorbed radiation.
The most striking examples of fluorescence occur when the absorbed radiation is in the ultraviolet region of the spectrum, and thus invisible, and the emitted light is in the visible region.
Fluorescence has many practical applications, including mineralogy, gemology, chemical sensors (Fluorescence spectroscopy), fluorescent labelling, dyes, biological detectors, and, most commonly, fluorescent lamps." 

--- On Thu, 6/2/11, Mixon Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

From: Mixon Bill <[email protected]>
Subject: [Texascavers] fluorescent rope
To: "Cavers Texas" <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, June 2, 2011, 10:26 PM
Something that can be charged up in light and then will glow for six hours is phosphorescent, not fluorescent. Sheesh!.--Bill Mixon, fussy editor 

Please reply to [email protected]
Permanent email address is [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I once had polypropylene prusik slings. They worked fine, although I used them only once in a real pit (~100 ft), just to show that I could. About that time, Jumars came out, and I could afford the $18 to get a pair.
A major problem with polypropylene is its low melting point, 130 to 170 degrees C. You could easily get your brakebars hot enough to melt, or at least seriously degrade, polypropylene. There may once have been a fatal accident at Gaping Gill (340 feet) in England for that reason. The nylon used in caving ropes melts at 265C. -- Mixon 
----------------------------------------
No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I want to clarify that I sent the original message tongue-in-cheek; I was not actually recommending that polypropylene rope is suitable for caving. I was just surprised that "caves" is mentioned on the packaging. I have enjoyed the comments. Do any of you know what would be involved (and how much it would cost) to make real caving ropes that glow-in-the-dark? LowGun 

On 6/3/2011 9:44 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
I once had polypropylene prusik slings. They worked fine, although I used them only once in a real pit (~100 ft), just to show that I could. About that time, Jumars came out, and I could afford the $18 to get a pair.
A major problem with polypropylene is its low melting point, 130 to 170 degrees C. You could easily get your brakebars hot enough to melt, or at least seriously degrade, polypropylene. There may once have been a fatal accident at Gaping Gill (340 feet) in England for that reason. The nylon used in caving ropes melts at 265C. -- Mixon 
----------------------------------------
No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

"I once had polypropylene prusik slings." ...

"A major problem with polypropylene is its low melting point, 130 to 170 degrees C. You could easily get your brakebars hot enough to melt, or at least seriously degrade, polypropylene."

Bill, most of the cavers I knew who used polypropylene prusiks avoided this problem by attaching their brakebars to metal racks (or to metal carabiners in the early days) instead of attaching them to polypropylene prusik slings. That tended to make rappelling easier, too.

;-)
Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mixon Bill
>Sent: Jun 3, 2011 9:44 PM
>To: Cavers Texas
>Subject: [Texascavers] polypropylene
>
>I once had polypropylene prusik slings. They worked fine, although I
>used them only once in a real pit (~100 ft), just to show that I
>could. About that time, Jumars came out, and I could afford the $18 to
>get a pair.
>
>A major problem with polypropylene is its low melting point, 130 to
>170 degrees C. You could easily get your brakebars hot enough to melt,
>or at least seriously degrade, polypropylene. There may once have been
>a fatal accident at Gaping Gill (340 feet) in England for that reason.
>The nylon used in caving ropes melts at 265C. -- Mixon
>----------------------------------------
>No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail.
>----------------------------------------
>You may "reply" to the address this message
>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>Personal: [email protected]
>AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

"I once had polypropylene prusik slings." ...

"A major problem with polypropylene is its low melting point, 130 to 170 degrees C. You could easily get your brakebars hot enough to melt, or at least seriously degrade, polypropylene."

Bill, most of the cavers I knew who used polypropylene prusiks avoided this problem by attaching their brakebars to metal racks (or to metal carabiners in the early days) instead of attaching them to polypropylene prusik slings. That tended to make rappelling easier, too.

;-)
Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Mixon Bill
>Sent: Jun 3, 2011 9:44 PM
>To: Cavers Texas
>Subject: [Texascavers] polypropylene
>
>I once had polypropylene prusik slings. They worked fine, although I
>used them only once in a real pit (~100 ft), just to show that I
>could. About that time, Jumars came out, and I could afford the $18 to
>get a pair.
>
>A major problem with polypropylene is its low melting point, 130 to
>170 degrees C. You could easily get your brakebars hot enough to melt,
>or at least seriously degrade, polypropylene. There may once have been
>a fatal accident at Gaping Gill (340 feet) in England for that reason.
>The nylon used in caving ropes melts at 265C. -- Mixon
>----------------------------------------
>No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail.
>----------------------------------------
>You may "reply" to the address this message
>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>Personal: [email protected]
>AMCS: [email protected] or [email protected]
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Remember the Fibre-Metal hard hats that used to be popular with cavers. Fibre-Metal used to make a glow-in-the-dark model, which some cavers used and which didn't cost much more than their other color options. If LowGun succeeds in convincing cavers to use glow-in-the-dark ropes, then, undoubtedly, all the fashion conscious cavers out there will want glow-in-the-dark helmets to match. ;-)  A number of companies do still make glow-in-the-dark helmets and hard hats, but I'm not sure how many, if any, of them are suitable for caving.

In the quest for "real caving ropes that glow-in-the-dark", you might want to check out "glo rope"

  http://www.glorope.com/catalog/detail.cfm?Prod_ID=102&Cat=1&SubCat=6

since they claim to make nylon double braided glow-in-the-dark rope in sizes ranging from 1/8" (tensile strength 1,000 lbs.) to 1-1/4"  (tensile strength 50,000 lbs.). They claim "This rope meets all requirements of the US Military spec. MIL-R-2405-D.", whatever that is.

They also advertise "Cave Rope" in sizes 1/16" (tensile strength 200 lbs.) and 3/32" (tensile strength 500 lbs.). I realize that recent generations of cavers have been trending towards the use of thiner climbing ropes, but isn't this getting a bit extreme!!! ;-)  Perhaps they think "cave rope" is what spelunkers and cave divers unroll through passages so that they can find their way out. 

Who knows what additional caving equipment items some people might want to make easy to locate in the dark. Whatever it is, if you can't find a ready made glow-in-the-dark version, I suppose you could always try painting it with some of this

  http://www.hobbyglow.com/

or wrapping it in some of these

  http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/night-light-lubricated-glow-in-the-dark-condoms/ID=prod396849-product


;-)
Rod

-----Original Message-----
>From: Logan McNatt
>Sent: Jun 3, 2011 10:06 PM
>To: Cavers Texas
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] polypropylene
>
>I want to clarify that I sent the original message tongue-in-cheek; I was not actually recommending that polypropylene rope is suitable for
>caving. I was just surprised that "caves" is mentioned on the packaging. I have enjoyed the comments. Do any of you know what would be
>involved (and how much it would cost) to make real caving ropes that glow-in-the-dark? LowGun
>
>On 6/3/2011 9:44 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
>> I once had polypropylene prusik slings. They worked fine, although I used them only once in a real pit (~100 ft), just to show that I could.
>> About that time, Jumars came out, and I could afford the $18 to get a pair.
>>
>> A major problem with polypropylene is its low melting point, 130 to 170 degrees C. You could easily get your brakebars hot enough to melt, or
>> at least seriously degrade, polypropylene. There may once have been a fatal accident at Gaping Gill (340 feet) in England for that reason. The
>> nylon used in caving ropes melts at 265C. -- Mixon
>> ----------------------------------------
>> No dolphins were killed in the preparation of this e-mail.
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Some of you will be interested in this book, which was published in Dec 2010. Only 1,000 copies were printed if I understand the statement correctly "Se tiraron 1000 ejemplares." If you want one, you need to contact the Whole Earth Provision Company link below. If you live in Austin, San Antonio, Dallas, or Houston, ask if they can send it to one of their stores there so you can pick it up and avoid the $10 shipping charge. The book is NOT on the shelf in their stores. 

Logan
P.S. Speaking of rock art, a group of about 8 Austin-based cavers saw Cave of the Forgotten Dreams tonight at the Violet Crown Cinema in downtown Austin. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EL ARTE INDIGENA EN COAHUILA by Solveig Turpin
Universidad Autonoma de Coahuila.  Saltillo, Coahuila, Mexico. 2010.

Soft cover, parallel text in English and Spanish, 226 pages, more than 150 
color plates and illustrations

$35.00 plus tax and $10.00 shipping



To confirm availability and purchase copies of EL ARTE INDIGENA EN COAHUILA, 
contact our Web Customer Service desk:
Email:  Web Customer Service WEPCo <[email protected]>
Phone:  512-476-1555 during business hours (9 to 5, M-F)
Mail: Whole Earth Provision Co.
Attn: Rock Art book
1010 W. 11th St
Austin, TX 78703

--- End Message ---

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