texascavers Digest 22 Jul 2012 23:06:39 -0000 Issue 1593
Topics (messages 20368 through 20386):
nice cave photos
20368 by: Mixon Bill
HALOGEN lighting system at Longhorn Caverns?
20369 by: Don Cooper
20373 by: Logan McNatt
20380 by: Don Cooper
20381 by: Brian Vauter
Re: Longhorn Cavern Sporting New Lighting System � Official Dedication to be
Held July 19
20370 by: Don Cooper
Updated TSA Members List
20371 by: Denise P
20372 by: Logan McNatt
20375 by: germanyj.aol.com
20377 by: Sheryl Rieck
20379 by: Mimi Jasek
halogen lamps
20374 by: Mixon Bill
20376 by: germanyj.aol.com
20378 by: Terry Holsinger
LED efficiency
20382 by: Mixon Bill
Jim McIntire or Joe Sumbera :
20383 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
photos
20384 by: Jill Orr
photo quality
20385 by: Jill Orr
20386 by: George D. Nincehelser
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--- Begin Message ---
Some nice cave photos, called to our attention by Gustavo Vela.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2175880/A-cave-new-world-amazing-underground-rock-formations-photographed-time.html
--Mixon
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Apologies for not staying in closer tune with the details, but the
KVUE weather channel news ticker mentioned a new HALOGEN lighting
system at Longhorn Caverns... I cannot see how that would POSSIBLY be
an energy efficient and less-heat generating lighting option.
Please confirm that they are as clueless as they seem - and the new
light system is LED based!
-WaV
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--- Begin Message ---
Don,
I just called Longhorn Caverns and the person who answered asked one of the tour guides if the new lighting system is halogen or LED. The guide
said it is halogen. Same for the description of the new lighting system in the June 21st TPWD press release that can be accessed at the TPWD
website or the Longhorn Cavern website (link below).
http://www.longhorncaverns.com/pdf/Longhorn_Caverns_New_Lighting.pdf
On 7/20/2012 7:06 PM, Don Cooper wrote:
Apologies for not staying in closer tune with the details, but the
KVUE weather channel news ticker mentioned a new HALOGEN lighting
system at Longhorn Caverns... I cannot see how that would POSSIBLY be
an energy efficient and less-heat generating lighting option.
Please confirm that they are as clueless as they seem - and the new
light system is LED based!
-WaV
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Yeah - I've gone back over it and yes, it is 12V Halogen.
In my experience - halogen lighting produces very yellow and very hot bulbs.
I don't get it - but apparently, yeah. They are halogen. Not LED, which it
would seem would be the most efficient and lowest heat producing light source!
-WaV
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Don,
>
> I just called Longhorn Caverns and the person who answered asked one of the
> tour guides if the new lighting system is halogen or LED. The guide said it
> is halogen. Same for the description of the new lighting system in the June
> 21st TPWD press release that can be accessed at the TPWD website or the
> Longhorn Cavern website (link below).
>
> http://www.longhorncaverns.com/pdf/Longhorn_Caverns_New_Lighting.pdf
>
>
>
> On 7/20/2012 7:06 PM, Don Cooper wrote:
>>
>> Apologies for not staying in closer tune with the details, but the
>> KVUE weather channel news ticker mentioned a new HALOGEN lighting
>> system at Longhorn Caverns... I cannot see how that would POSSIBLY be
>> an energy efficient and less-heat generating lighting option.
>> Please confirm that they are as clueless as they seem - and the new
>> light system is LED based!
>> -WaV
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Also the most expensive.
We looked at LED when lighting the South Cavern at Natural Bridge. We felt
that it's not quite there yet, and at between $60 to $120 per bulb, it
simply was not feasible. What we went with is a 12-volt system which does
use less power to illuminate the cavern. We are still looking at them as it
seems each year the costs keep coming down. Plus there are some incredible
systems which would give us interpretive tools which simply haven't existed
until now. And going with a full LED system would allow you to run the
entire lighting system off of solar panels, thus taking a commercial tour
off the grid, so to speak. This is also something we are watching.
My experience with halogen is that yes, they burn hot, but if you take the
time to design the overall system, your lights are only on when people are
actually in a given room or passage and then turned off upon leaving. We
also purposefully chose to keep much of the cavern dark. But again, this is
a choice made by the installers/owners/operators. We no longer feel it
necessary to light up every blessed square inch of cave. If we could go
back and relight the North Caverns (and we intend to do so at some point),
we would likely remove a significant portion of the ambient light. Doing so
is better for the cavern, and we feel it also produces a better experience
for the guest. We haven't seen any issues arise with the halogens in the
South Cavern. The one drawback with that heat is that calcite will deposit
quickly on the lenses of the fixtures. If not maintained, the quality of
light from the fixture deteriorates. The fixtures even survived full
submersion when part of the cave filled with water back in 2007.
I feel that the color of the light gets in to a subjective argument. We
feel that halogen actually produces a better color for Natural Bridge
over incandescent, and much better than compact fluorescent. To my eye,
halogen is more white, thus I feel it produces as "neutral" a light as
possible, if that makes sense. But again, this also goes to what you are
attempting to illuminate. The color of the light created by a given bulb
can actually enhance a cave scene, depending on the natural colors present
within the rock. That's one interesting thing about LED bulbs is that
some manufacturers will let us create a bulb with different numbers of
blue/white/yellow/red LEDs. Personally, I tend to shy away from doing so
as it's not too many steps away from full-on tecno-color-rama of red, blue,
purple, and green lights found in some show caves. And that just hurts my
feelings, along with my eyes.
Brian Vauter
Natural Bridge Caverns
On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Don Cooper <wavyca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah - I've gone back over it and yes, it is 12V Halogen.
> In my experience - halogen lighting produces very yellow and very hot
> bulbs.
> I don't get it - but apparently, yeah. They are halogen. Not LED, which
> it
> would seem would be the most efficient and lowest heat producing light
> source!
> -WaV
>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com>
> wrote:
> > Don,
> >
> > I just called Longhorn Caverns and the person who answered asked one of
> the
> > tour guides if the new lighting system is halogen or LED. The guide
> said it
> > is halogen. Same for the description of the new lighting system in the
> June
> > 21st TPWD press release that can be accessed at the TPWD website or the
> > Longhorn Cavern website (link below).
> >
> > http://www.longhorncaverns.com/pdf/Longhorn_Caverns_New_Lighting.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/20/2012 7:06 PM, Don Cooper wrote:
> >>
> >> Apologies for not staying in closer tune with the details, but the
> >> KVUE weather channel news ticker mentioned a new HALOGEN lighting
> >> system at Longhorn Caverns... I cannot see how that would POSSIBLY be
> >> an energy efficient and less-heat generating lighting option.
> >> Please confirm that they are as clueless as they seem - and the new
> >> light system is LED based!
> >> -WaV
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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>
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I don't get Halogen. It produces as much heat per lumen as
incandescent lighting.
-WaV
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Natasha Glasgow
<natashanich...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hopefully they were a little more creative in hiding the wiring this time!!!
> Can't wait to see it!!!
>
> Natasha
>
> From: "germa...@aol.com" <germa...@aol.com>
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Cc: mark.al...@l-3com.com; diane.dismu...@tpwd.state.tx.us;
> we...@zianet.com; eric.houseofs...@gmail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:40 PM
> Subject: [Texascavers] Longhorn Cavern Sporting New Lighting System —
> Official Dedication to be Held July 19
>
> Hey Cavers!
>
> Longhorn Cavern Sporting New Lighting System — Official Dedication to be
> Held July 19
>
> BURNET — Add one more reason to visit or revisit Longhorn Cavern State Park
> this summer other than its constant 68-degree environment. Workers have
> rewired the National Registered Landmark and replaced decades-old
> incandescent lights with hundreds of energy-saving, 12-volt halogen lights
> to better illuminate the cavern’s most outstanding natural features.
>
>
> Read the release:
> http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20120628b
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello-I have (separately) emailed the revised TSA members list. If you are a
TSA member (dues paid) and did not get it, please email me off list.
Thanks,
Denise Prendergast
TSA Secretary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Denise deserves a big THANK YOU from all the members of the TSA for the time
and effort she spent putting together this list!
THANKS DENISE!
Logan
On 7/21/2012 5:46 AM, Denise P wrote:
Hello-I have (separately) emailed the revised TSA members list. If you are a
TSA member (dues paid) and did not get it, please email me off list.
Thanks,
Denise Prendergast
TSA Secretary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
YOU ROCK, DENISE!
Having done something similar for a 25 year old organization was a chore. I can
only imagine the fun you had with this project!
Thanks so much for taking care of the members. We really appreciate it :)
julia
-----Original Message-----
From: Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com>
To: Denise P <pepabe...@hotmail.com>
Cc: TexasCavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 21, 2012 9:22 am
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Updated TSA Members List
Denise deserves a big THANK YOU from all the members of the TSA
for the time and effort she spent putting together this list!
THANKS DENISE!
Logan
On 7/21/2012 5:46 AM, Denise P wrote:
Hello-I have (separately) emailed the revised TSA members list.
If you are a TSA member (dues paid) and did not get it, please email me
off list.
Thanks,
Denise Prendergast
TSA Secretary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>
>> I agree it is a good job. Thanks
Sheryl
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--- Begin Message ---
Awesome, tedious, fantastic job! Thank you Denise. We appreciate it:)
Mimi Jasek
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 21, 2012, at 5:46 AM, Denise P <pepabe...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hello-I have (separately) emailed the revised TSA members list. If you are a
> TSA member (dues paid) and did not get it, please email me off list.
>
> Thanks,
> Denise Prendergast
> TSA Secretary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Halogen lamps are so more efficient than ordinary incandescent lamps,
because they run at a higher temperature and put out more lumens per
watt. Sure, every lamp, even an LED, ultimately creates one watt of
heat per watt of input, but the question is how much of the energy is
useful light on the way to becoming heat.
LEDs aren't as much more efficient than other lights as most people
think. They seem brighter because their output is inherently focused.
They aren't really more efficient than compact fluorescents for area
lighting.
Halogen bulbs might be an inexpensive substitute for ordinary light
bulbs once the clowns in Washington have outlawed the 25-cent kind. --
Mixon
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
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As a cave manager, I would be more concerned with which type of bulb would
reduce (eliminate??) the algal growth on the formations that are near the heat
of the lamp.
julia
-----Original Message-----
From: Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com>
To: Cavers Texas <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 21, 2012 11:50 am
Subject: [Texascavers] halogen lamps
Halogen lamps are so more efficient than ordinary incandescent lamps,
because they run at a higher temperature and put out more lumens per
watt. Sure, every lamp, even an LED, ultimately creates one watt of
heat per watt of input, but the question is how much of the energy is
useful light on the way to becoming heat.
LEDs aren't as much more efficient than other lights as most people
think. They seem brighter because their output is inherently focused.
They aren't really more efficient than compact fluorescents for area
lighting.
Halogen bulbs might be an inexpensive substitute for ordinary light
bulbs once the clowns in Washington have outlawed the 25-cent kind. --
Mixon
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
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Bill you are way behind the times on LED tech.
Old school tungsten lamps are 8-20 lumens per watt, as the wattage goes
up so does the lumens per watt up to about 35 for projection lamps.
Halogen lamps are better then the lower wattage bulbs, at 9-25 lumens
per watt.
Compact fluorescents typically have 50-70 lumens per watt
Regular T5 straight Florescent bulbs run 70-105 lumens per watt
Low pressure sodium (yellow street light) have a lumens per watt of ~200,
Currently available White LED's from CREE have a lumens per watt of 260
lumens per watt (this is the LED chip used in the Scurion and other of
the newer caving lamps) and it is now standard for many LED's available
to have lumens per watt in the 100-200 range.
When looking at the costs of replacing a whole system of lamps, the
bulbs efficiency is often the last thing to worry about, wiring costs,
voltage/transformer costs and replacment are bigger factors for the
"average Joe" LED tech is still in a state of rapid development so the
bulbs they would buy today may not be avalable nect year, and many of
the light manufacturing companys have stopped putting money into CFL
development and have instead switched to LED as that is were the future
is in lighting (at least on any commercial scale)
Terry H.
On 7/21/2012 11:50 AM, Mixon Bill wrote:
Halogen lamps are so more efficient than ordinary incandescent lamps,
because they run at a higher temperature and put out more lumens per
watt. Sure, every lamp, even an LED, ultimately creates one watt of heat
per watt of input, but the question is how much of the energy is useful
light on the way to becoming heat.
LEDs aren't as much more efficient than other lights as most people
think. They seem brighter because their output is inherently focused.
They aren't really more efficient than compact fluorescents for area
lighting.
Halogen bulbs might be an inexpensive substitute for ordinary light
bulbs once the clowns in Washington have outlawed the 25-cent kind. --
Mixon
--Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
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See http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/us-doe/comparing_white_leds.pdf
.
LEDs are best when used essentially as spotlights, for example as a
reading light, task light, or headlight.--Mixon
----------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies . . . after they are hanged.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
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If anyone has their current email addresses, please contact me offline.
Thanks !
Jerry.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have photos they would like published in the Texas Caver from
the NSS and the storm? Please be sure they are at least 150 dpi and send
soonest possible.
Thanks in advance!
jill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please keep the following in mind when taking photos that could be submitted
for print in The Texas Caver.
One of the hardest things to deal with as a graphic designer is getting
quality images from non professional photographers. Most people just have no
reason to know the difference in digital image resolution quality.
Here is a quick lesson:
Resolution is the measurement of how many pixels fit into one inch (dpi).
72 dpi = BAD
300 dpi = GOOD
The higher resolution, the sharper the image will be. Standard
recommendation for an image for print is 300 dpi for crisp, clear results.
Lower resolution images appear fuzzy, jagged, and blurry.
Most people have their phones and cameras set on low quality to allow for
higher storage volume, and of course sending via pixt or email. You can't
tell the difference until you try to print.
To increase resolution for quality prints:
Adjust your camera to the highest quality setting. Taking the photo on the
highest setting will maximize both the quality of the image, as well as the
range of sizes at which you will be able to use it in printing projects. If
possible, save your image as a TIF.
Thanks for listening ! J
Jill
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--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to suggest something.
Camera memory is cheap. Really cheap. Probably cheaper than film ever
was. I just bought a 16 Gig Class 10 SD memory card at WalMart for $25.
That will hold SEVERAL THOUSAND high quality JPEGs on my entry-level DSLR.
Unless you have a really good reason for not doing so, beef up your
camera's memory and use the best possible quality. (Check your manual to
see just how large a card your camera can handle)
Nothing sucks like having a really cool picture, but in a resolution too
low to print or enlarge.
George
On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 4:56 PM, Jill Orr <jill...@swbell.net> wrote:
> Please keep the following in mind when taking photos that could be
> submitted for print in The Texas Caver.****
>
> ** **
>
> One of the hardest things to deal with as a graphic designer is getting
> quality images from non professional photographers. Most people just have
> no reason to know the difference in digital image resolution quality.****
>
> ** **
>
> Here is a quick lesson:****
>
> * *
>
> Resolution is the measurement of how many pixels fit into one inch (dpi).*
> ***
>
> 72 dpi = BAD****
>
> 300 dpi = GOOD****
>
>
> The higher resolution, the sharper the image will be. Standard
> recommendation for an image for print is 300 dpi for crisp, clear results.
> Lower resolution images appear fuzzy, jagged, and blurry.**
>
> * *
>
> Most people have their phones and cameras set on low quality to allow for
> higher storage volume, and of course sending via pixt or email. You can’t
> tell the difference until you try to print.****
>
> * *
>
> To increase resolution for quality prints: ****
>
> ** **
>
> Adjust your camera to the highest quality setting. Taking the photo on the
> highest setting will maximize both the quality of the image, as well as the
> range of sizes at which you will be able to use it in printing projects.
> If possible, save your image as a TIF. ****
>
> Thanks for listening ! J
> Jill****
>
> ** **
>
--- End Message ---
