texascavers Digest 1 Jun 2011 16:52:27 -0000 Issue 1325
Topics (messages 17945 through 17962):
Re: Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
17945 by: Mark Minton
17946 by: Geary Schindel
17947 by: Rod Goke
17957 by: Mark Minton
17962 by: Geary Schindel
Crews Free Trapped Man In Sinking Cove Cave :
17948 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
Re: Rescue at Sinking Cove Cave
17949 by: caverarch
Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
17950 by: Linda Palit
17951 by: Tim Stich
17952 by: John P Brooks
17953 by: Linda Palit
17954 by: Mark Minton
17955 by: Geary Schindel
Disregard email from last week
17956 by: Leslie Bell
New climbing technologies
17958 by: Rod Goke
UT Grotto Meeting Tonight
17959 by: Gary Franklin
Re: [PBSS] 5 Mouth Dig
17960 by: Bill Bentley
17961 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been
several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an
experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too
short and that could potentially be confused for the correct
one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look
down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that
I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me.
I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to
prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future.
Mark Minton
At 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote:
There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I
know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers
are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull
down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It
appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on
the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now,
and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
I just heard they got him out of the cave. Not sure of the cause of the
accident but Sinking Cove Cave is a classic multi-drop pull down trip. Mostly
short drops with a nice exit into a truck passage in the bottom of the cave.
The Boulder entrance is the one that he entered and includes a 30 foot entrance
down climb, a 50 foot rappel, another 53 foot rappel, a 30 foot down climb, a
20 foot rappel and another 20 foot rappel to about 100 feet of stream crawl
that is pretty tight. It appears that the accident happened at the last 20
foot drop. Gerald Moni got stuck in the crawl below the last 20 foot drop a
couple of years ago and had to be hammered out. I think it would be very
difficult to bring someone though this area in a stretcher. Taking someone in
a sked up the drops and through some tight crawls would also be very difficult.
Then you have to carry them down the mountain. I'm sure this was no easy
rescue but the cave rescue teams in the TAG area are the best and most
experienced in the US.
I understand the guy who was injured was on the Mt. Thor rappels and has a lot
of experience. It will probably take a couple of days to hear the details.
Geary
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I don't know the details of what happened in the recent accident in Tennessee, but I can second what Mark said about the importance of looking down frequently and rappelling slowly enough so you can stop on short notice if necessary. This is good advice even when you think you are sure that every rope rigged in the vicinity is long enough to reach the bottom.
Back when I was a caver in Colorado, before moving to Austin, there was a serious rappelling accident that came very close to being twice as bad, by seriously injuring, or perhaps even killing, a second caver. On the way down, one experienced caver accidently cut his rappel rope, resulting in a long fall with serious injuries to himself. (Yes, cutting his rope was another one on those preventable mistakes you don't normally expect from an experienced caver.) At the top, another, somewhat less experienced, caver had been waiting his turn to rappel and was in a location where he couldn't see what had just happened below. When he saw the rope go slack, he assumed that the first caver was safely off rope at the bottom. There hadn't been any "off rope" voice signal, of course, but the caver above probably thought that the wind and weather conditions were simply too noisy for the signal to be heard, so he rigged in and began rappelling, with no thought to the possibility that the rope might no longer reach bottom. Fortunately, he did look down and was able to stop before rappelling off the end, but it was a very close call. I understand that he stopped only about a foot or two above where the rope had been cut, and he had to be helped back to the top by other cavers, since he didn't have ascending gear accessible to switch over by himself. Yes, indeed, sometimes it does pay to look where you are going!
Rod
-----Original Message-----
>From: Mark Minton
>Sent: May 30, 2011 8:49 PM
>To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Deep cave rescue happening now in eastern Tennessee multi-drop cave
>
> I can't believe this keeps happening! There have been
>several accidents of this nature. Why in the world wouldn't an
>experienced caver have put a knot at the bottom of a rope that is too
>short and that could potentially be confused for the correct
>one? And why wasn't he looking where he was going? I always look
>down to see what's below as I rappel, and I don't rappel so fast that
>I couldn't stop if there were a problem, like the end of the rope coming at me.
> I hope the rescue is successful and that people take note to
>prevent this sort of preventable accident in the future.
>
>Mark Minton
>
>At 07:17 PM 5/30/2011, speleoste...@aol.com wrote:
>>There's a big cave rescue going on in eastern Tennessee right now. I
>>know the victim - Dirk Siron. It's Sinking Cove Cave. Forty rescuers
>>are in the cave.What I've been told is that Dirk was doing a pull
>>down rappel and got on the wrong rope, falling off the end of it. It
>>appears he's got at least a broken pelvis. A friend of mine is on
>>the scene and texting me. He's at the bottom of the second drop now,
>>and the estimate is they'll have him out in three more hours.
>
>Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
>Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
>
>
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It has been suggested that the accident happened because
they had rigged the pull-down with a stopper knot and the guy rigged
into the wrong side of the knot. In that case it wouldn't have
mattered whether or not there was a knot at the end of the short side
(if there was a short side), because his weight would have pulled
down the rope, same as if he rigged onto the wrong side if it were
tried off at the bottom on one side. Only if he rappelled with both
ropes in his rack would that not be an issue, but you can't do that
with a Micro Rack or a bobbin.
Mark Minton
At 10:52 PM 5/30/2011, Geary Schindel wrote:
Mark,
I just heard they got him out of the cave. Not sure of the cause of
the accident but Sinking Cove Cave is a classic multi-drop pull down
trip. Mostly short drops with a nice exit into a truck passage in
the bottom of the cave. The Boulder entrance is the one that he
entered and includes a 30 foot entrance down climb, a 50 foot
rappel, another 53 foot rappel, a 30 foot down climb, a 20 foot
rappel and another 20 foot rappel to about 100 feet of stream crawl
that is pretty tight. It appears that the accident happened at the
last 20 foot drop. Gerald Moni got stuck in the crawl below the
last 20 foot drop a couple of years ago and had to be hammered
out. I think it would be very difficult to bring someone though
this area in a stretcher. Taking someone in a sked up the drops and
through some tight crawls would also be very difficult. Then you
have to carry them down the mountain. I'm sure this was no easy
rescue but the cave rescue teams in the TAG area are the best and
most experienced in the US.
I understand the guy who was injured was on the Mt. Thor rappels and
has a lot of experience. It will probably take a couple of days to
hear the details.
Geary
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Good points and it shows that even a very experienced caver can sometimes make
a mistake and mistakes can be very costly. Dirk was on the team that performed
the world record rappel off of Mt. Thor in Baffin Island (4,000+ feet) and I
would bet has done numerous multi-drop pull down trips in the TAG area. Looks
like he just plane screwed up. Just that one second slip up is all it takes.
Couple of general comments to be made that may or may not related to the
incident.
Always check and understand your rigging, especially if you don't have a lot of
experience with the type of rigging used in the type of caving you're doing.
Make sure you know the proper use and limitations of your equipment and
techniques.
Keep an eye on everyone else's equipment and techniques. You may learn
something and you might prevent a disaster.
I've spent my entire caving and climbing career evaluating every person's
equipment and rigging and asking the questions "Why did they do it that way"
and "What if" component "X" failed. You will learn a lot.
Find a good mentor (or mentors) and learn all you can. I've been doing this
for 40 years and I'm still learning things.
It is OK to walk away from a vertical cave for whatever reason, be it personal
health, physical fitness, equipment problems, comfort level with other cavers,
or just a bad feeling. It is a lot easier to walk away than to create an
incident or a rescue. No self respecting caver, at least the one's you want to
cave with, will question that. Caving is a challenge by choice sport. You
don't have to do the drop today as it will be there tomorrow.
Reminds me of the primary directive for motorcycle riding - never ride any
faster than you're willing to jump off and when you're no longer scared of it,
time to put it down. I had to throw that in there
Take a cave rescue and wilderness first aid course.
I'm sure that other folks out there may have some additional recommendations
that have served them well over the years.
Geary
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--- Begin Message ---
Crews Free Trapped Man In Cave
Alabama Man Falls 15-20 Feet While In Franklin County Cave
POSTED: 8:10 am CDT May 30, 2011
UPDATED: 7:19 pm CDT May 30, 2011
WINCHESTER, Tenn. -- Rescue crews in Franklin County were able to free an
Alabama man at about 6 p.m. Monday who injured himself and became trapped in
a cave near the Sherwood community.
The 51-year-old Huntsville, Ala., spelunker fell into the Sinking Cove
Cave around 3 p.m. Sunday. His name is not being released. Crews worked
through the night and were finally able to rescue him successfully around 6
p.m.
Monday.
The rescue effort was complicated because of the geographic layout of the
terrain, said Franklin County Sgt. Chris Guess.
The caver was transported to Erlanger Medical Center for treatment after
the 15-20 foot fall. He is believed to have a broken pelvis, injured back,
wrist and rib cage according to officials.
The severity of those injuries has not been released.
About 60 volunteers helped to free the man, including rescuers from
Huntsville, Chattanooga and Knoxville.
Franklin County Sheriff Tim Fuller said the cave opening was low and
narrow, and they had make the opening larger. Crews had to cut through rock in
order to reach the caver.
_http://www.wsmv.com/news/28070109/detail.html_
(http://www.wsmv.com/news/28070109/detail.html)
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Comments on the nature of Sinking Cove Cave from a veteran Florida caver.
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Houha
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 10:45 pm
Subject: Rescue at Sinking Cove Cave
The pull-down trip at Sinking Cove Cave is a great adventure as long as you
don't fall. One hikes up the mountain to an upper level entrance. From here,
there are multiple climb-downs and drops to rappel. We pulled down ropes as we
descended so there was no turning back. When we hit the bottom, there was a
tight crawl in the water to the main stream passage. I barely fit. I have a
feeling that they hammered out a deeper crawlway in the water to get this caver
out so next time I go, it should be a lot easier. Otherwise they had a lot of
work backtracking and exiting the upper entrance.
http://www.waaytv.com/news/local/story/cave-rescue-winchester-franklin-county/dwotql3R2U2hyIasfqtpVw.cspx
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http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-c
ave
Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's funny how news agencies all report that the man was "trapped" in the
cave, which to me would indicate he had something pinning him down or that a
collapse prevented getting out of the cave. News writers really don't
appreciate that cavers are happy underground and that they put themselves
there on purpose. So being underground a little longer than planned is just
perhaps inconvenient.
Maybe they could rewrite the story along those lines: "An injured
51-year-old caver got to stay in the cave longer than expected as he was
helped along by rescuers."
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-cave
>
> Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
>
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The article had links to a flickr slide show of the cave. And it also had a
link to a google map location for the cave.
--- On Tue, 5/31/11, Tim Stich <timstic...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Tim Stich <timstic...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
To: "Linda Palit" <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net>
Cc: "texascavers@texascavers.com" <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 9:55 AM
It's funny how news agencies all report that the man was "trapped" in the cave,
which to me would indicate he had something pinning him down or that a collapse
prevented getting out of the cave. News writers really don't appreciate that
cavers are happy underground and that they put themselves there on purpose. So
being underground a little longer than planned is just perhaps inconvenient.
Maybe they could rewrite the story along those lines: "An injured 51-year-old
caver got to stay in the cave longer than expected as he was helped along by
rescuers."
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-cave
Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
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Locations in TAG are much more public than in Texas--long term practice for
better or worse, and partly because there are so many caves. Sinking Cove may
be a SCCI cave- guess I'll look that up.
Via clumsy I-thumbs
On May 31, 2011, at 10:23 AM, John P Brooks <jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The article had links to a flickr slide show of the cave. And it also had a
> link to a google map location for the cave.
>
> --- On Tue, 5/31/11, Tim Stich <timstic...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Tim Stich <timstic...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
> To: "Linda Palit" <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: "texascavers@texascavers.com" <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 9:55 AM
>
> It's funny how news agencies all report that the man was "trapped" in the
> cave, which to me would indicate he had something pinning him down or that a
> collapse prevented getting out of the cave. News writers really don't
> appreciate that cavers are happy underground and that they put themselves
> there on purpose. So being underground a little longer than planned is just
> perhaps inconvenient.
>
> Maybe they could rewrite the story along those lines: "An injured 51-year-old
> caver got to stay in the cave longer than expected as he was helped along by
> rescuers."
>
> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-cave
>
> Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
>
>
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It's interesting how the media distort, or more likely don't really
understand, what cavers tell them about caves and rescues. Several news
reports have stated that the rescue was taking place a couple of
thousand feet below the surface, when in fact the cave is nowhere near
that deep. What they probably meant was a couple of thousand feet of
traverse distance into the cave. I think Buddy Lane stated in one video
that it was actually about 400 feet down.
The other potentially dangerous thing one reporter said was that the
rescuers carried 22-caliber handguns into the cave to knock away rock!
I'm sure that what they really did was microblasting using 22 shells,
although I'm amazed they would do that instead of using straws. In any
event, I can just imagine a new spate of injuries as yahoos take their
guns into caves and start firing away trying to enlarge tight spots.
Sigh.
Mark Minton
>On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
>http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man
-in-cave
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Sinking Cove Cave is owned by a hunting club and leased and managed by the SCCI.
With more than 10,000 caves in the three state TAG (Tennessee, Alabama, and
George) area, it is hard to keep the more popular ones secret as few of the
caves have gates and many of them are on lumber company, state, or national
forest land. For cavers, Tennessee has a very open access to the cave survey
data. If you are a responsible caver, you can join the TCS and get a printout
of the data base that includes all the known caves, locations (lat long), and
basic information such as number of drops, horizontal length, vertical drops,
etc. You can also get the map book with the mapped caves in the State. I
believe the thinking is that if you provide information to cavers, then they
are more likely to get information back which is why they have more caves
recorded than any other state. They also probably have more total caves mapped
than any other state.
The guy that was hurt is a very experience caver and I believe was on the Mt.
Thor trip which was the cliff on Baffin Island where they did almost a mile
rappel.
Geary
From: Linda Palit [mailto:lkpa...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:43 AM
To: John P Brooks
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
Locations in TAG are much more public than in Texas--long term practice for
better or worse, and partly because there are so many caves. Sinking Cove may
be a SCCI cave- guess I'll look that up.
Via clumsy I-thumbs
On May 31, 2011, at 10:23 AM, John P Brooks
<jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
The article had links to a flickr slide show of the cave. And it also had a
link to a google map location for the cave.
--- On Tue, 5/31/11, Tim Stich
<timstic...@gmail.com<mailto:timstic...@gmail.com>> wrote:
From: Tim Stich <timstic...@gmail.com<mailto:timstic...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Sinking Cove Successful Rescue
To: "Linda Palit" <lkpa...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:lkpa...@sbcglobal.net>>
Cc: "texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>"
<Texascavers@texascavers.com<mailto:Texascavers@texascavers.com>>
Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 9:55 AM
It's funny how news agencies all report that the man was "trapped" in the cave,
which to me would indicate he had something pinning him down or that a collapse
prevented getting out of the cave. News writers really don't appreciate that
cavers are happy underground and that they put themselves there on purpose. So
being underground a little longer than planned is just perhaps inconvenient.
Maybe they could rewrite the story along those lines: "An injured 51-year-old
caver got to stay in the cave longer than expected as he was helped along by
rescuers."
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Linda Palit
<lkpa...@sbcglobal.net<mailto:lkpa...@sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
http://www.waff.com/story/14749749/tenn-rescue-crews-trying-to-free-man-in-cave
Link to article and info on successful Sinking Cove rescue.
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Please disregard any emails you may have received from my email address that
contains a link as the main text in the email.
Kind regards,
Leslie Bell
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--- Begin Message ---
Here's an interesting new technology for climbing up walls and even across ceilings with no ropes, anchor points, or handholds; not even suction cups or glue! Thus far, it's been demonstrated only with small robots climbing on relatively flat, but not necessarily smooth, surfaces. Not exactly a replacement for all your climbing ropes and bolt kits yet, but still interesting to watch:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-robots/robot-uses-supersonic-jets-of-air-to-stick-to-almost-anything
If you'd prefer a technology for climbing uneven, non-flat surfaces, then watch how this robot climbs trees:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/treebot-learns-to-autonomously-climb-trees
Can caving robots be far behind (that is, for caving above water, since we know that Bill Stone already has one for caving underwater)?
;-)
Rod
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Grotto Meeting TONIGHT 7:45 - 9:00 PM
UT Campus 2.48 Painter Hall
Lydia Hernandez will be presenting
Adventures in Puerto RIco with Sport Caving and Cave Rescue Training.
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We still have openings for the 5 mouth cave dig trip
----- Original Message -----
From: jlrbi...@sonoratx.net
To: p...@caver.net
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject: [PBSS] 5 Mouth
First:
The current 5 Mouth list is: Bill Bentley, Walter, Paul Unger, David ? and
friend, Me. I will be camoing Friday night unless something work related
prevents.
Kerry, I still do not know if we'll be hanging over to Sunday but it so far
does not look like it.
We need more! We have an archaeology person joining us and we will become more
educated as a result.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
PBSS mailing list
p...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/pbss_caver.net
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Could you give us/me some history and location of this, Jacqui?
I’ve seen y’all mention this cave/dig, but know nothing more about it.
Does it connect to CaCa, Mammoth, Cave of the Winds? 8^)>
Thanks!
Mark
From: Bill Bentley [mailto:ca...@caver.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 7:59 AM
To: Texascavers Mailing List
Cc: PBSS Mailing List
Subject: [Texascavers] Fw: [PBSS] 5 Mouth Dig
We still have openings for the 5 mouth cave dig trip
----- Original Message -----
From: jlrbi...@sonoratx.net
To: p...@caver.net
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject: [PBSS] 5 Mouth
First:
The current 5 Mouth list is: Bill Bentley, Walter, Paul Unger, David ? and
friend, Me. I will be camoing Friday night unless something work related
prevents.
Kerry, I still do not know if we'll be hanging over to Sunday but it so far
does not look like it.
We need more! We have an archaeology person joining us and we will become more
educated as a result.
________________________________
_______________________________________________
PBSS mailing list
p...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/pbss_caver.net
--- End Message ---
