texascavers Digest 23 Aug 2013 16:34:34 -0000 Issue 1829
Topics (messages 22491 through 22503):
Re: Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
22491 by: Louise Power
22492 by: caverarch
22493 by: Tim Stich
22494 by: Bob Booth
22502 by: Louise Power
Salt Dome drains Lake Peigneur, LA 1980
22495 by: Logan McNatt
22496 by: Tim Stich
22497 by: caverarch
22503 by: Louise Power
New Invasvive Species - Raspberry Ants / aka Tawny Ants
22498 by: Julia Germany
22499 by: George D. Nincehelser
tawny crazy ants
22500 by: Mixon Bill
22501 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Saw this on ABC news this morning. Apparently they've been watching this for
several years. They said it's collapsing salt dome.
Louise
From: stefan.crea...@arm.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:58:23 -0700
Subject: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23793499
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
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ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered
in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2548782
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Salt dome: That's what I assumed it must be since it's Louisiana. Probably
initiated by oil extraction and poorly sealed abandoned wells. Water could then
be dissolving the salt and creating unsupported voids.
Roger Moore
-----Original Message-----
From: Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com>
To: Stefan Creaser <stefan.crea...@arm.com>; texas cavers
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 2:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
Saw this on ABC news this morning. Apparently they've been watching this for
several years. They said it's collapsing salt dome.
Louise
From: stefan.crea...@arm.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:58:23 -0700
Subject: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23793499
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered
in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2548782
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the story it was a water injection well into the salt dome for the
purpose of making and extracting brine. The void left by the removed salt
is what is collapsing.
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:04 PM, caverarch <cavera...@aol.com> wrote:
> Salt dome: That's what I assumed it must be since it's Louisiana. Probably
> initiated by oil extraction and poorly sealed abandoned wells. Water could
> then be dissolving the salt and creating unsupported voids.
>
> Roger Moore
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com>
> To: Stefan Creaser <stefan.crea...@arm.com>; texas cavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 2:29 pm
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in
> Louisiana!
>
> Saw this on ABC news this morning. Apparently they've been watching this
> for several years. They said it's collapsing salt dome.
>
> Louise
>
> ------------------------------
> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:58:23 -0700
> Subject: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23793499
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590
> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2548782
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was an article on NPR a while back about the problem.
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/20/174853576/massive-sinkhole-in-louisiana-baffles-officials
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 4:04 PM, caverarch <cavera...@aol.com> wrote:
> Salt dome: That's what I assumed it must be since it's Louisiana. Probably
> initiated by oil extraction and poorly sealed abandoned wells. Water could
> then be dissolving the salt and creating unsupported voids.
>
> Roger Moore
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com>
> To: Stefan Creaser <stefan.crea...@arm.com>; texas cavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 2:29 pm
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in
> Louisiana!
>
> Saw this on ABC news this morning. Apparently they've been watching this
> for several years. They said it's collapsing salt dome.
>
> Louise
>
> ------------------------------
> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:58:23 -0700
> Subject: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23793499
>
>
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
> ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590
> ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
> Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2548782
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, they used water to bring up the salt and created a big undeground
void. The overburden got too heavy and it started collapsing last year. They've
been watching it ever since.
Louise
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
From: cavera...@aol.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:04:33 -0400
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
Salt dome: That's what I assumed it must be since it's Louisiana. Probably
initiated by oil extraction and poorly sealed abandoned wells. Water could then
be dissolving the salt and creating unsupported voids.
Roger Moore
-----Original Message-----
From: Louise Power <power_lou...@hotmail.com>
To: Stefan Creaser <stefan.crea...@arm.com>; texas cavers
<texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 2:29 pm
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
Saw this on ABC news this morning. Apparently they've been watching this for
several years. They said it's collapsing salt dome.
Louise
From: stefan.crea...@arm.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:58:23 -0700
Subject: [Texascavers] Holy crap! Sinkhole swallowing trees in Louisiana!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23793499
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
ARM Limited, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ, Registered
in England & Wales, Company No: 2557590
ARM Holdings plc, Registered office 110 Fulbourn Road, Cambridge CB1 9NJ,
Registered in England & Wales, Company No: 2548782
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The most dramatic collapse of a salt dome--due to human error--occured at Lake
Peigneur LA on Nov 20, 1980. Incredible film/video footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddlrGkeOzsI
(snip from Wikipedia) On November 20, 1980, when the disaster took place, the Diamond Crystal Salt Company
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargill> operated the Jefferson Island salt mine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mine> under the lake, while a
Texaco <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texaco> oil rig <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_platform> drilled down from the surface of the lake
searching for petroleum <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum>. Due to a miscalculation, the 14-inch (36 cm) drill bit entered the mine,
starting a chain of events which turned an almost 10-foot (3.0 m) deep freshwater lake into a salt water lake with a deep hole.
It is difficult to determine exactly what occurred, as all of the evidence was destroyed or washed away in the ensuing maelstrom
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maelstrom>. One explanation is that a miscalculation by Texaco regarding their location resulted in the drill
puncturing the roof of the third level of the mine. This created an opening in the bottom of the lake. The lake then drained into the hole,
expanding the size of that hole as the soil and salt were washed into the mine by the rushing water, filling the enormous caverns left by the
removal of salt over the years. The resultant whirlpool <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlpool> sucked in the drilling platform, eleven barges,
many trees and 65 acres (260,000 m^2 ) of the surrounding terrain. So much water drained into those caverns that the flow of the Delcambre Canal
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delcambre_Canal> that usually empties the lake into Vermilion Bay
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermilion_Bay_%28Louisiana%29> was reversed, making the canal a temporary inlet. This backflow created, for a few
days, the tallest waterfall ever in the state of Louisiana, at 164 feet (50 m), as the lake refilled with salt water from the Delcambre Canal
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delcambre_Canal> and Vermilion Bay <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermilion_Bay_%28Louisiana%29>. The water
downflowing into the mine caverns displaced air which erupted as compressed air and then later as 400-foot (120 m) geysers
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geyser> up through the mineshafts.^[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur#cite_note-h-4>
There were no injuries and no human lives lost. All 55 employees in the mine at the time of the accident were able to escape thanks to
well-planned and rehearsed evacuation drills, while the staff of the drilling rig fled the platform before it was sucked down into the new
depths of the lake, and Leonce Viator, Jr. (a local fisherman) was able to drive his small boat to the shore and get out.^[4]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur#cite_note-h-4> Three dogs were reported killed, however. Days after the disaster, once the water
pressure equalized, nine of the eleven sunken barges <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barge> popped out of the whirlpool and refloated on the
lake's surface.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, Logan. I've seen that video many times now. It's pretty amazing,
isn't it?
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> The most dramatic collapse of a salt dome--due to human error--occured at
> Lake Peigneur LA on Nov 20, 1980. Incredible film/video footage.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddlrGkeOzsI
>
> (snip from Wikipedia) On November 20, 1980, when the disaster took place,
> the Diamond Crystal Salt Company
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargill>operated the Jefferson Island salt
> mine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mine> under the lake, while a
> Texaco <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texaco> oil
> rig<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_platform>drilled down from the surface
> of the lake searching for
> petroleum <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum>. Due to a
> miscalculation, the 14-inch (36 cm) drill bit entered the mine, starting a
> chain of events which turned an almost 10-foot (3.0 m) deep freshwater lake
> into a salt water lake with a deep hole.
>
> It is difficult to determine exactly what occurred, as all of the evidence
> was destroyed or washed away in the ensuing
> maelstrom<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maelstrom>.
> One explanation is that a miscalculation by Texaco regarding their location
> resulted in the drill puncturing the roof of the third level of the mine.
> This created an opening in the bottom of the lake. The lake then drained
> into the hole, expanding the size of that hole as the soil and salt were
> washed into the mine by the rushing water, filling the enormous caverns
> left by the removal of salt over the years. The resultant
> whirlpool<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whirlpool>sucked in the drilling
> platform, eleven barges, many trees and 65 acres
> (260,000 m2) of the surrounding terrain. So much water drained into those
> caverns that the flow of the Delcambre
> Canal<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delcambre_Canal>that usually empties the
> lake into Vermilion
> Bay <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermilion_Bay_%28Louisiana%29> was
> reversed, making the canal a temporary inlet. This backflow created, for a
> few days, the tallest waterfall ever in the state of Louisiana, at 164 feet
> (50 m), as the lake refilled with salt water from the Delcambre
> Canal<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delcambre_Canal>and Vermilion
> Bay <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermilion_Bay_%28Louisiana%29>. The
> water downflowing into the mine caverns displaced air which erupted as
> compressed air and then later as 400-foot (120 m)
> geysers<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geyser>up through the mineshafts.
> [4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur#cite_note-h-4>
>
> There were no injuries and no human lives lost. All 55 employees in the
> mine at the time of the accident were able to escape thanks to well-planned
> and rehearsed evacuation drills, while the staff of the drilling rig fled
> the platform before it was sucked down into the new depths of the lake, and
> Leonce Viator, Jr. (a local fisherman) was able to drive his small boat to
> the shore and get
> out.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Peigneur#cite_note-h-4>Three dogs
> were reported killed, however. Days after the disaster, once the
> water pressure equalized, nine of the eleven sunken
> barges<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barge>popped out of the whirlpool and
> refloated on the lake's surface.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank for sharing that amazing story, Logan!
Roger G. Moore
-----Original Message-----
From: Logan McNatt <lmcn...@austin.rr.com>
To: Texas Cavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 22, 2013 3:32 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] Salt Dome drains Lake Peigneur, LA 1980
The most dramatic collapse of a salt dome--due to human error--occured
at Lake Peigneur LA on Nov 20, 1980. Incredible film/video footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddlrGkeOzsI
(snip from Wikipedia) On November 20, 1980, when the disaster took place,
the Diamond Crystal Salt Company operated the Jefferson Island salt mine
under the lake, while a Texaco oil rig drilled down from the surface of
the lake searching for petroleum. Due to a miscalculation, the
14-inch (36 cm) drill bit entered the mine, starting a chain of events
which turned an almost 10-foot (3.0 m) deep freshwater lake into a salt
water lake with a deep hole.
It is difficult to determine exactly what occurred, as all of the evidence
was destroyed or washed away in the ensuing maelstrom. One explanation is
that a miscalculation by Texaco regarding their location resulted in the
drill puncturing the roof of the third level of the mine. This created an
opening in the bottom of the lake. The lake then drained into the hole,
expanding the size of that hole as the soil and salt were washed into the
mine by the rushing water, filling the enormous caverns left by the
removal of salt over the years. The resultant whirlpool sucked in the
drilling platform, eleven barges, many trees and 65 acres (260,000 m2) of
the surrounding terrain. So much water drained into those caverns that the
flow of the Delcambre Canal that usually empties the lake into Vermilion
Bay was reversed, making the canal a temporary inlet. This backflow
created, for a few days, the tallest waterfall ever in the state of
Louisiana, at 164 feet (50 m), as the lake refilled with salt water from
the Delcambre Canal and Vermilion Bay. The water downflowing into the mine
caverns displaced air which erupted as compressed air and then later as
400-foot (120 m) geysers up through the mineshafts.[4]
There were no injuries and no human lives lost. All 55 employees in the
mine at the time of the accident were able to escape thanks to
well-planned and rehearsed evacuation drills, while the staff of the
drilling rig fled the platform before it was sucked down into the new
depths of the lake, and Leonce Viator, Jr. (a local fisherman) was able to
drive his small boat to the shore and get out.[4] Three dogs were
reported killed, however. Days after the disaster, once the water pressure
equalized, nine of the eleven sunken barges popped out of the whirlpool
and refloated on the lake's surface.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Regardless of how it happened, it makes for spectacular video.
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 15:32:14 -0500
From: lmcn...@austin.rr.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Salt Dome drains Lake Peigneur, LA 1980
The most dramatic collapse of a salt dome--due to human error--occured at Lake
Peigneur LA on Nov 20, 1980. Incredible film/video footage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddlrGkeOzsI
(snip from Wikipedia) On November 20, 1980, when the disaster took place, the
Diamond Crystal Salt Company operated the Jefferson Island salt mine under the
lake, while a Texaco oil rig drilled down from the surface of the lake
searching for petroleum. Due to a miscalculation, the 14-inch (36 cm) drill bit
entered the mine, starting a chain of events which turned an almost 10-foot
(3.0 m) deep freshwater lake into a salt water lake with a deep hole.
It is difficult to determine exactly what occurred, as all of the evidence was
destroyed or washed away in the ensuing maelstrom. One explanation is that a
miscalculation by Texaco regarding their location resulted in the drill
puncturing the roof of the third level of the mine. This created an opening in
the bottom of the lake. The lake then drained into the hole, expanding the size
of that hole as the soil and salt were washed into the mine by the rushing
water, filling the enormous caverns left by the removal of salt over the years.
The resultant whirlpool sucked in the drilling platform, eleven barges, many
trees and 65 acres (260,000 m2) of the surrounding terrain. So much water
drained into those caverns that the flow of the Delcambre Canal that usually
empties the lake into Vermilion Bay was reversed, making the canal a temporary
inlet. This backflow created, for a few days, the tallest waterfall ever in the
state of Louisiana, at 164 feet (50 m), as the lake refilled with salt water
from the Delcambre Canal and Vermilion Bay. The water downflowing into the mine
caverns displaced air which erupted as compressed air and then later as
400-foot (120 m) geysers up through the mineshafts.[4]
There were no injuries and no human lives lost. All 55 employees in the mine at
the time of the accident were able to escape thanks to well-planned and
rehearsed evacuation drills, while the staff of the drilling rig fled the
platform before it was sucked down into the new depths of the lake, and Leonce
Viator, Jr. (a local fisherman) was able to drive his small boat to the shore
and get out.[4] Three dogs were reported killed, however. Days after the
disaster, once the water pressure equalized, nine of the eleven sunken barges
popped out of the whirlpool and refloated on the lake's surface.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At last weekend's TCMA meeting, Matt Turner gave a very interesting report
about the rapid spread of the Tawny Ant, formerly known as the Raspberry Ant,
after the man who identified them. Had Matt not previously asked me to "like"
the Tawny Ant FB page, I would not have known what he was talking about and why
cavers should be concerned. He has been monitoring them inside and outside of
Whirlpool Cave (Austin) as well as other caves in the area for a long time, and
they are starting to have serious effects on the caves and the crickets. The
current solution is an evil pesticide that will only cause more problems for
caves.
While watching the 10:00 pm Houston ABC local news tonight, they did a story
about these invasive ants. It's worth the few minutes the story lasts to watch
and learn more:
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/consumer&id=9215910
For even more info, contact Matt Turner. Sorry, I don't have his email address.
julia germany - Houston home owner who will vigilantly be on the look out for
these invasive ants in my potted plants, and around my yard!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've just been trying to sort out the name.
Apparently "Rasberry" (not "RasPberry") comes from the name of the
exterminator who discovered them.
I'm not clear if "Crazy" is part of the preferred common name or not.
"Crazy" would seem to refer to their erratic behavior.
Why the change to "Tawny Crazy"? I've no idea.
Here's another link helpful link:
http://urbanentomology.tamu.edu/ants/rasberry.html
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Julia Germany <germa...@aol.com> wrote:
> At last weekend's TCMA meeting, Matt Turner gave a very interesting report
> about the rapid spread of the Tawny Ant, formerly known as the Raspberry
> Ant, after the man who identified them. Had Matt not previously asked me
> to "like" the Tawny Ant FB page, I would not have known what he was talking
> about and why cavers should be concerned. He has been monitoring them
> inside and outside of Whirlpool Cave (Austin) as well as other caves in the
> area for a long time, and they are starting to have serious effects on the
> caves and the crickets. The current solution is an evil pesticide that will
> only cause more problems for caves.
>
> While watching the 10:00 pm Houston ABC local news tonight, they did a
> story about these invasive ants. It's worth the few minutes the story
> lasts to watch and learn more:
>
> http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/consumer&id=9215910
>
> For even more info, contact Matt Turner. Sorry, I don't have his email
> address.
>
> julia germany - Houston home owner who will vigilantly be on the look out
> for these invasive ants in my potted plants, and around my yard!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Crazy ants" have been in the press off and on for over 15 years and
haven't driven us crazy yet. Maybe these "tawny crazy ants" are
significantly different, but maybe not. The info on the other crazy
ant on the A&M site is very similar. Anyway, thanks, George, for
pointing us to the Texas A&M site, which appears to be authoritative.
A press release quoting only a guy who runs an exterminating company
(and who named the ants after himself) is hardly worth notice.
Anyway, sounds like another species that is, with human help, finding
a nice new niche. Who says humans only harm species? -- Mixon
----------------------------------------
A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is
absolutely fatal.
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, Bill, tawny crazy ants are different and we only have ourselves to blame
for their presence in Texas.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 23, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Mixon Bill <bmixon...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> "Crazy ants" have been in the press off and on for over 15 years and haven't
> driven us crazy yet. Maybe these "tawny crazy ants" are significantly
> different, but maybe not. The info on the other crazy ant on the A&M site is
> very similar. Anyway, thanks, George, for pointing us to the Texas A&M site,
> which appears to be authoritative. A press release quoting only a guy who
> runs an exterminating company (and who named the ants after himself) is
> hardly worth notice.
>
> Anyway, sounds like another species that is, with human help, finding a nice
> new niche. Who says humans only harm species? -- Mixon
> ----------------------------------------
> A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely
> fatal.
>
> ----------------------------------------
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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