I want to reitterate that fun caving and scientific caving are not mutually exclusive. Those who pursue a scientific career often chose to do so because there is something about it that excites them and draws them into it. Sport cavers are usually curious about the bigger picture and have important observations and insights to contribute. The great thing about caving is that it's not just a job, or a sport, or hobby, it's a passion that attracts lots of different kinds of people for lots of different reasons. Sharing the experiences of exploration and discovery is a worthy endeavor in itself, and it's a loss to forget why do it or to believe that only one motivation is acceptable. Aubri Jenson Caver and Geologist
Mark-I've got something I can send along for the TC. I'll get it to you this weekend. On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Benjamin Schwartz <b...@txstate.edu>wrote: > Dear Freddie, > > I don't think I know you, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, > but what under this world are you implying? I apologize if I am > misinterpreting what you wrote, but do you mean that most cavers now > (sport, science, whatever) are no longer caving for fun? I, for one, don't > willingly do very many things that I consider un-fun, and caving is > certainly not one of them. I have no disdain for any responsible caver, nor > do I know any other cavers who do. > > As a scientist, expedition/project caver, and sometimes sport caver, I'd > like to point out that, without cave science, there would be a whole lot > fewer cavers actually going caving today. WNS is a good example. If cave > scientists (speleologists of all types) had not been involved in basic > research about WNS, policy decisions, decon protocol, and education, caving > may have pretty much been shut down in many areas. > > Also, I take serious issue with your comment "...if anyone cares to read > such dry boring drivel". While you and many others may not enjoy reading > about science, if you can't at least respect and understand that it has > made our lives what they are today (including the ability to go caving with > more than a cedar torch), perhaps you should consider shunning the use of > all technologies and knowledge that science has advanced and created and go > back to living in a cave with a torch. Actually, I'm sure that even the > torch required some experimentation to find the best wood. :-) > > You are correct; I don't consider your comments valid. Not because you are > not a PhD, but because they are a bit narrow minded and out of touch with > what your own organizations stand for. The NSS's founding mission statement > is: "*The National Speleological Society (NSS) is a non-profit membership > organization dedicated to the scientific study of caves and karst; > protecting caves and their natural contents through conservation, > ownership, stewardship, and public education; and promoting responsible > cave exploration and fellowship > among those interested in caves."* > > The TSA's Constitution contains similar language: *"The purposes of TSA > are to promote (1) the study and science of speleology, (2) the > protection of caves and the preservation of natural and cultural resources > within caves, (3) the education of members and the > general public, and (4) communication and coordination of speleological > activities in the State of Texas. TSA supports the aims > and goals of the National Speleological Society."* > > Note that while scientific study of caves is the first thing listed > (presumably because it was viewed as very important), science is not the > only thing listed. We (The NSS, TSA, etc) are organizations filled with > speleologists, project/expedition cavers, sport cavers, educators, people > who no longer cave, and even a few people who have never been in a cave. It > is time for some folks to stop acting like it is 'us' and 'them', and for > everyone to recognize that it is the collective interests of each person in > these organizations, all of us as 'cavers', that makes them what they are, > and that all of us benefit in unseen ways from this diversity. I, for one, > am proud to be a part of these organizations. > > And finally, if folks don't like what is being published in the TC, then > stop complaining and write something different! And Mark, keep up the good > work! > > Respectfully, > > Benjamin Schwartz > > --------------------------------------- > > On May 17, 2012, at 8:34 AM, freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I think that you will find a lot of us "unscientific" or sport cavers > agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, > that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers > were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far > toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out > there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to > read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by > cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science > communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving > should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average > sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were > originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it > is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many > cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of > it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to > justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we > can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the > National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of > course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the > letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from > the academic types. > > Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) > > >
