texascavers Digest 17 May 2012 19:36:15 -0000 Issue 1550
Topics (messages 19994 through 19999):
Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
19994 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
19996 by: Mark Minton
19999 by: freddie poer
Re: texascavers Digest 17 May 2012 13:57:52 -0000 Issue 1548
19995 by: Benjamin Schwartz
19997 by: Aubri Jenson
Re: TX caver discussion-- the future
19998 by: Katherine Arens
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
Great to hear, Allan, and kudos to Jill.
Glad to see that there are a few grotto newsletters still in existence.
Now, if y'all would be so kind to copy me when a new one comes out...
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:a...@oztotl.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:54 AM
To: Lyndon Tiu
Cc: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS; Mimi Jasek;
texascavers@texascavers.com; Ray Hertel; GHG
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER
- A Discussion
The Bexar Grotto has a pretty regular newsletter, too. Kudos to Jill Orr
for making that happen.
Allan
Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone
On May 17, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Lyndon Tiu <l...@alumni.sfu.ca> wrote:
> On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, <mark.al...@l-3com.com> wrote:
>> Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore!
>>
>> UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and
burned
>> and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts
to, the
>> Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill
Bentley
>> did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the
Houston
>> Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were
doing it,
>> but, it also is no more.
>
>
> Ahem, correction.
>
> The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec.
13, 2011.
>
> We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next
> issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers.
>
>
> Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to
> you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto
> checking account."
>
> We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10
> for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;)
>
>
>
> --
> Lyndon Tiu
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, George, for confirming my similar suspicions. I've
never thought of the Texas Caver or even the NSS News as particularly
science oriented. (The NSS has the Journal of Cave and Karst Studies
for that.) Perhaps instead of science the perception is that
publications are too heavily biased toward expedition and project
caving. I certainly find those articles most interesting because
that's the kind of caving I've been doing for over 40 years, but I
generally read every article in the Texas Caver, even if it is about
a newbie trip to Airman's. I also enjoy keeping up with activities
like TSA Conventions and TCR, which I am too far away too
attend. So, I join the chorus of those encouraging everyone to write
about their trips, even if they are sport trips with no new
exploration or science.
I also agree with Ben Schwartz about almost all caving being
fun, whether it's science, mapping, digging, whatever. We wouldn't
do it otherwise. Expedition and project reports also generally
mention the great camaraderie and fun times had around the campfire,
hiking to the caves, etc. I've even been on cave rescues (all
successful, fortunately) that were fun. So write about your trips,
even if nothing new is discovered. Tell us how much fun you had, and
let us share in it.
Keep the faith, Mark, and keep up the great work as editor!
Mark
At 11:06 AM 5/17/2012, George Veni wrote:
Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many
science articles in the TC made me think that I didn't recall any
recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents
for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total
of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys,
projects, and generally lots of "fun"
(non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing
in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I
found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news
I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one
article that could be classified as "science," a nice 1-page report
by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves.
Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I'd also expect this
would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren't interested
in science articles.
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report,
Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with.
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: "freddie poer" <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
Don't give up..
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: freddie poer
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
I think that you will find a lot of us "unscientific" or sport cavers agree
with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go
caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty
years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the
scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the
needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring
drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of
cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far
toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or
scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the
organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started
caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related
career. Now, many cavers look with disdain
upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to
being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training,
mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver
die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This
is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because
I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the
backlash from the academic types.
Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title)
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com <mark.al...@l-3com.com> wrote:
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com <mark.al...@l-3com.com>
Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: "Mimi Jasek" <mjca...@gmail.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM
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Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and
distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few
years and whose opinions I highly respect.
In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by
crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi
Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the
past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER.
My responses are in BOLD TYPE.
Mark,
I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically
oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like
myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are
sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity,
and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we
take pictures.
Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for
the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we
haven't been there, it's "virgin" to us!
What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving
would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism
from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and
expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read
the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice
articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and
rambling report got slammed?
Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the
irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then,
there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA!
I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual
BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as
much).
I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an
attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know
the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if
somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry,
songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just
cavers writing about caving.
I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my
various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order
to send something in.
The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping.
Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so
beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only
content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC
for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful
caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that would
encourage more input.
Wholeheartedly agree again, Mimi. If people don't care enough to send material
in, I don't care enough to be the Editor after this next issue of the TC.
Think about what I've said here. Our world is so electronic now. People have
Internet, cable tv, Facebook, etc. It is so easy to produce quality articles
with all the tools we have at our disposal now. But people are busy living in
our fast paced world, and will not take time to contribute to something if made
to feel inferior or unappreciated. They have better ways to use their time for
their own personal enjoyment and fulfillment.
Wow, we agree again. It’s the dumbing down, ADD world that the digital age has
wrought. No one reads papers, reads books, or writes or reads anything of heft
and substance.
"Idiocracy" is becoming the new norm (look it up in Wikipedia) and people would
rather post some nonsensical post about their need for coffee on Facebook than
create anything of substance. Please!
If you bothered to finish this rambling mess, hopefully it will give you some
insight on how to reinvigorate the TC. One article I would love to see would
need to be done by Gil Ediger or someone else with long time knowledge of the
Texas Old Timers Reunion. (Sorry, I am an old timer and old fashioned. Not pc
at all.) I heard Gil talking to some newer cavers about the significance of all
the images in the cave drawing now on the back of the tshirts. Let's have an
article with a breakdown of the image - like an outline with numbers on each
part - and the story behind each image. Although an active Texas caver since
the 70s, I do not know who all the people are who are depicted, nor the stories
about them as to how or why they were chosen to be there. This article alone
could take up pages in an issue, and I think there are a lot of cavers who
don't know this information and would find it interesting.
That is an excellent idea and I like it a LOT!
Anyway, enough. After all the years I spent helping on the TC - from writing,
taking pics, typing, layout work, printing, assembling, mailing - I would hate
to see it go down. I still enjoy it! Attitudes must change to assure survival.
Of course I personally feel the caving world has gotten too lofty and proud and
political, but I am just a simple sport caver:) What do I know, and who cares?
You and James know a LOT and I appreciate your insight and observations, Mimi!
Imagine putting the TC out every month like Jim used to do! We used to write a
LOT of trip reports and articles from our own trips, projects, etc, for the
same reason - used them when no submissions!
I have done the same, Mimi, but doing it every month like y'all used to? Wow!
I will say that in this age of electronic wizardry, I really don't see why you
don't have submissions. It's so easy to send stuff in. So, either everyone is
putting the reports in grotto newsletters and not sharing with the TC, all
active cavers have lost your TC info, or all caving these days is "secret" and
not for sharing. Surely couldn't be laziness or apathy!
Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore!
UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and
they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the
Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a
great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto
used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it
also is no more.
At this rate, The TEXAS CAVER is headed for extinction and people can post
their pictures and fluff comments to FB.
They all seem to like FB better. Heck, my kids have been on a bunch of trips
and even I can't get them to write on!
With all the organized caving at preserves, projects, etc, with a report from
each of those trips you should have lots of material for each issue. Rather see
all that in the TC than on cavetex:) Pics included.
Amen, sister!
Amazing that you agreed with me on so much! I am an older caver, and have
always been a bit quiet due to not wanting to make waves:) Jim knows I can get
in trouble if I open up too much:) My opinions can be a bit harsh.
Sound fine to me!
First, you can't just post on cavetex and ask people to submit something:) Has
to be more personal. Jim used to write over 365 letters a year asking for
submissions and helping folks with ideas for articles. Of course, that was with
snail mail! How easy can e-mail be in comparison?
I have appealed by email to folks that have either posted trip announcements,
been on a trip, or have conducted talks, etc. at Grotto meetings. I would say
my batting average is at 5% response.
The last couple of months, it has been a big, fat zero response.
Some people who complain the most about some things contribute little. (I did
not say that, though:))
Once again, Amen, sister!
I really feel cavers are so into their own projects - secret and public - that
they simply do not want to publish info so as not to be bothered with others
wanting to join in. Just too busy, as stated before. I am older, kids grown and
gone, but still work full time and have family responsibilities that leave not
much me time. So I get it. But some efforts are worth the rewards.
Agreed and been there, done that. I still found time to write trip reports when
I was the DFWG’s Oztotl Caver editor. Once one sits down to write it, it
usually goes very fast.
Also, I realize many of our caving movers and shakers are either older and feel
they have already given enough, or are younger and want some life outside of
caving, so again choose not to give it any more time than they do. But again,
three months to come up with something seems reasonable, right?
I know what you say in reference to the armchair/chronologically challenged
cavers not being very active anymore. But, heck, I would be happy to receive
submission of past adventures in exploration for The Carbide Corner column,
but, to no avail there, either. Fritz Holt and Mark Minton have supplied me
pieces, as has Bill Steele, but, that’s about it!
Gil is not the only one to approach about the OT graphic. Ask around in the
UTG, whoever makes the shirt, or put that part of my suggestion out there. See
if a group will come forward and do it! I could be labeled as stupid and out of
the loop for not knowing, but Waco is not a caving community!
Neither is the Dallas area where I live, but, hopefully someone will step up
and write a piece and supply me the graphic.
I just don't know if there is the interest in the TC anymore to keep it alive,
but time will tell. Jim tells me there is gobs of caving going on in Texas, but
unless your involved, you don't hear about it.
You’re right, Mimi. There is a gob of caving going on, but no one wants to
write a report on it, or, the ones that have written reports in the past are
tired of doing all of the documenting and want/need someone else to do it.
I know I fall in the latter category.
Gas prices on our limited budget make us pick and choose where and when we go
places.
Agreed.
Hmmm - maybe people could write anonymous articles, as in no cave names,
county, or road locations. Just somewhere in Texas kind of thing. That could
preserve their project's anonymity, but still give folks some entertaining
moments of underground activity. No directionality even on maps! Even leave
off names of those on trips - like true fiction stuff! Worth a suggestion? (Jim
just said yuck to this, for no one likes to hear about the secret caving of
others - even fictionalized! But if you don't know if it's real, gets your
attention, right?)
Excellent idea!
Ok, enough. We do not want to be in charge of anything anymore, but don't mind
giving out ideas or suggestions. Because we live so far from most caving and
have limited travel resources, we have to sometimes miss things we used to
attend always. We do what we can, and lend support where feasible.
I sincerely enjoy your thoughts and observations and, maybe, with the future of
The TEXAS CAVER being on the chopping block, this message would elicit a
response.
If no response, the masses will have spoken.
Either way, it will generate some interest and, by God, the TC needs it!
I'll hope for interest and submissions. Just hard to understand why the newer,
younger generation of Texas cavers are not as passionate about sharing their
experiences as we older ones. Not all of us are on fb or have smart phones, and
I still think one of the best parts of a trip is the vocal - or printed -
rehashing of the experience. Oh, and the bath!:)
Thanks!
Mimi and Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Freddie,
I don't think I know you, and you are certainly entitled to your
opinion, but what under this world are you implying? I apologize if I am
misinterpreting what you wrote, but do you mean that most cavers now
(sport, science, whatever) are no longer caving for fun? I, for one,
don't willingly do very many things that I consider un-fun, and caving
is certainly not one of them. I have no disdain for any responsible
caver, nor do I know any other cavers who do.
As a scientist, expedition/project caver, and sometimes sport caver, I'd
like to point out that, without cave science, there would be a whole lot
fewer cavers actually going caving today. WNS is a good example. If cave
scientists (speleologists of all types) had not been involved in basic
research about WNS, policy decisions, decon protocol, and education,
caving may have pretty much been shut down in many areas.
Also, I take serious issue with your comment "...if anyone cares to read
such dry boring drivel". While you and many others may not enjoy reading
about science, if you can't at least respect and understand that it has
made our lives what they are today (including the ability to go caving
with more than a cedar torch), perhaps you should consider shunning the
use of all technologies and knowledge that science has advanced and
created and go back to living in a cave with a torch. Actually, I'm sure
that even the torch required some experimentation to find the best wood. :-)
You are correct; I don't consider your comments valid. Not because you
are not a PhD, but because they are a bit narrow minded and out of touch
with what your own organizations stand for. The NSS's founding mission
statement is: "*The National Speleological Society (NSS) is a non-profit
membership organization dedicated to the scientific study of caves and
karst; protecting caves and their natural contents through conservation,
ownership, stewardship, and public education; and promoting responsible
cave exploration and fellowship
among those interested in caves."*
The TSA's Constitution contains similar language: *"The purposes of TSA
are to promote (1) the study and science of speleology, (2) the
protection of caves and the preservation of natural and cultural
resources within caves, (3) the education of members and the
general public, and (4) communication and coordination of speleological
activities in the State of Texas. TSA supports the aims
and goals of the National Speleological Society."*
Note that while scientific study of caves is the first thing listed
(presumably because it was viewed as very important), science is not the
only thing listed. We (The NSS, TSA, etc) are organizations filled with
speleologists, project/expedition cavers, sport cavers, educators,
people who no longer cave, and even a few people who have never been in
a cave. It is time for some folks to stop acting like it is 'us' and
'them', and for everyone to recognize that it is the collective
interests of each person in these organizations, all of us as 'cavers',
that makes them what they are, and that all of us benefit in unseen ways
from this diversity. I, for one, am proud to be a part of these
organizations.
And finally, if folks don't like what is being published in the TC, then
stop complaining and write something different! And Mark, keep up the
good work!
Respectfully,
Benjamin Schwartz
---------------------------------------
On May 17, 2012, at 8:34 AM, freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
<mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
I think that you will find a lot of us "unscientific" or sport cavers
agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed,
that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas
Cavers were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a
little too far toward the scientific side. There are countless
scientific journals out there to cover the needs of the scientific
community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S.
and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not
the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward
the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or
scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in
the organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of
us started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a
science related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others
who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being
cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training,
mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas
Caver die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society
(N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be
considered valid because I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name.
I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the academic types.
Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to reitterate that fun caving and scientific caving are not mutually
exclusive. Those who pursue a scientific career often chose to do so
because there is something about it that excites them and draws them into
it. Sport cavers are usually curious about the bigger picture and have
important observations and insights to contribute. The great thing about
caving is that it's not just a job, or a sport, or hobby, it's a passion
that attracts lots of different kinds of people for lots of different
reasons. Sharing the experiences of exploration and discovery is a worthy
endeavor in itself, and it's a loss to forget why do it or to believe that
only one motivation is acceptable.
Aubri Jenson
Caver and Geologist
Mark-I've got something I can send along for the TC. I'll get it to you
this weekend.
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Benjamin Schwartz <b...@txstate.edu>wrote:
> Dear Freddie,
>
> I don't think I know you, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion,
> but what under this world are you implying? I apologize if I am
> misinterpreting what you wrote, but do you mean that most cavers now
> (sport, science, whatever) are no longer caving for fun? I, for one, don't
> willingly do very many things that I consider un-fun, and caving is
> certainly not one of them. I have no disdain for any responsible caver, nor
> do I know any other cavers who do.
>
> As a scientist, expedition/project caver, and sometimes sport caver, I'd
> like to point out that, without cave science, there would be a whole lot
> fewer cavers actually going caving today. WNS is a good example. If cave
> scientists (speleologists of all types) had not been involved in basic
> research about WNS, policy decisions, decon protocol, and education, caving
> may have pretty much been shut down in many areas.
>
> Also, I take serious issue with your comment "...if anyone cares to read
> such dry boring drivel". While you and many others may not enjoy reading
> about science, if you can't at least respect and understand that it has
> made our lives what they are today (including the ability to go caving with
> more than a cedar torch), perhaps you should consider shunning the use of
> all technologies and knowledge that science has advanced and created and go
> back to living in a cave with a torch. Actually, I'm sure that even the
> torch required some experimentation to find the best wood. :-)
>
> You are correct; I don't consider your comments valid. Not because you are
> not a PhD, but because they are a bit narrow minded and out of touch with
> what your own organizations stand for. The NSS's founding mission statement
> is: "*The National Speleological Society (NSS) is a non-profit membership
> organization dedicated to the scientific study of caves and karst;
> protecting caves and their natural contents through conservation,
> ownership, stewardship, and public education; and promoting responsible
> cave exploration and fellowship
> among those interested in caves."*
>
> The TSA's Constitution contains similar language: *"The purposes of TSA
> are to promote (1) the study and science of speleology, (2) the
> protection of caves and the preservation of natural and cultural resources
> within caves, (3) the education of members and the
> general public, and (4) communication and coordination of speleological
> activities in the State of Texas. TSA supports the aims
> and goals of the National Speleological Society."*
>
> Note that while scientific study of caves is the first thing listed
> (presumably because it was viewed as very important), science is not the
> only thing listed. We (The NSS, TSA, etc) are organizations filled with
> speleologists, project/expedition cavers, sport cavers, educators, people
> who no longer cave, and even a few people who have never been in a cave. It
> is time for some folks to stop acting like it is 'us' and 'them', and for
> everyone to recognize that it is the collective interests of each person in
> these organizations, all of us as 'cavers', that makes them what they are,
> and that all of us benefit in unseen ways from this diversity. I, for one,
> am proud to be a part of these organizations.
>
> And finally, if folks don't like what is being published in the TC, then
> stop complaining and write something different! And Mark, keep up the good
> work!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Benjamin Schwartz
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> On May 17, 2012, at 8:34 AM, freddie poer <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I think that you will find a lot of us "unscientific" or sport cavers
> agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed,
> that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers
> were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far
> toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out
> there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to
> read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by
> cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science
> communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving
> should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average
> sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were
> originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it
> is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many
> cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of
> it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to
> justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we
> can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the
> National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of
> course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the
> letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from
> the academic types.
>
> Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title)
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
has anyone considered that we have a platform shift in place?
There's an extraordinary number of phone videos being produced --
we've seen a lot of them at the UT Grotto
How about justifying an electronic tx cave and mounting them on
youtube with a COMMENT published, rather than a full article --
contextualize the video within a trip.
Different kind of trip report. Very cool. Not your grandpa's trip
report -- i suspect that George is right in his assessment of
content. But what we really might be talking about is not "science"
but "formal writing" (yes, i teach literature).
Look at the older TX cavers from the 70s and 80s, and there was a lot
more folklore and bad grammar in the stories wrapped around the trip
reports. People were way more willing to talk about the afterparties
in the context of project reports. I suspect that stuff is migrating
to video commentary.
So a new KIND of submission for TC? A video description with a
screen grab advertising a youtube thing?
katie (p.s. note new email -- they made me do it)
************************
Katherine Arens Office Phones: (512) 232-6363
ar...@austin.utexas.edu Dept. Phone: (512) 471-4123
Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
2505 University Ave, C3300 Bldg.Location: Burdine 336
University of Texas at Austin Office: Burdine 320
Austin, TX 78712-1088
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