texascavers Digest 19 May 2012 23:05:05 -0000 Issue 1552
Topics (messages 20004 through 20016):
Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
20004 by: Mark Minton
20005 by: Butch Fralia
20006 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20007 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20016 by: freddie poer
Caver, articles, and interest
20008 by: Linda Palit
20010 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20011 by: Mark Minton
Join us for the next NSS Webinar - June 6th!
20009 by: NSS Announcements
Rock Climbers in China Caves
20012 by: Mark Minton
20015 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net
rock climbing in China cave
20013 by: Mixon Bill
20014 by: Mark Minton
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--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Mallory. In the past, grotto newsletters were
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers
elsewhere. There might also be reports on things like vertical
practice or a survey class. When there were enough (were there ever
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be
safely relegated to grotto newsletters. However in the present
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.
Mark
At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy
"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."
Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an
absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We
have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute
articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for
their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA....
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser
<stefan.crea...@arm.com> wrote:
I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce
their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.
Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and
the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a
Grotto newsletter serve?
My 2p.
-Stefan
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry The Maverick Grotto flopped, there were a lot of articles that started
there and ended up in The Caver. Same thing with the DFW Oztotl years ago.
I can't do the things I did back then so don't get out to write articles.
Surely there's someone out there with an ego that likes to see their name in
print.
Butch
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
I agree with Mallory. In the past, grotto newsletters were
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers
elsewhere. There might also be reports on things like vertical
practice or a survey class. When there were enough (were there ever
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be
safely relegated to grotto newsletters. However in the present
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.
Mark
At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
>Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy
>"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."
>
>Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an
>absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We
>have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute
>articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for
>their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA....
>
>On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser
><stefan.crea...@arm.com> wrote:
>
>I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce
>their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.
>
>Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and
>the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a
>Grotto newsletter serve?
>
>My 2p.
>
>-Stefan
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Superb idea, Mark!
Editors, do your part.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER
- A Discussion
However in the present
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just wanted to thank all of you for the great response, compliments, ideas, and
suggestions to Mimi and my post here on CaveTex.
It was encouraging to see all of your thoughts on how to get more material for
publication in The TEXAS CAVER and I was pleasantly surprised to hear that not
all of the Grotto newsletters out there are defunct.
It was also very pleasing to see all of the back and forth conducted in a
civil, respectful, and productive manner, for the most part!
I have received plenty of promises for material for the next couple of issues
(Yes, I will stay on as Editor ONLY if I start receiving more material!).
Like the discussion that was triggered by Mimi and my “discussion”, all of
this discussing is for naught if it doesn’t equate into submissions!
Talk is cheap, but, keep discussing if y’all want to!
So, c’mon all of you cavers and Grottos, active or armchair, let the Texas
caving community know what you have been up to and, if you haven’t done so
already, join the TSA!
Mucho gracias!
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.
--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> wrote:
From: George Veni <gv...@nckri.org>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: "'freddie poer'" <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM
Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave
science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the
importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides
the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get
the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those
cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many
other things in and related to caves.
Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this
relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms)
as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view,
anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the
big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration
projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of
visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus
training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities.
Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter
implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a
cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is
better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography,
restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy
being there. And I find it all “recreational.”
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28
To: gv...@nckri.org
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving?
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> wrote:
From: George Veni <gv...@nckri.org>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: "'Texas Cavers'" <Texascavers@texascavers.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM
Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science
articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science
articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues
through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an
abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun”
(non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas,
with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs,
TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be
interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,”
a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas
caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this
would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science
articles.
So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles
with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was
impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information
provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos
and providing them to us in a beautiful format.
It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers.
And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now
where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s
efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it
helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you
to send in material.
1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may
want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to
the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of
trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of the TC.
2) If you a new caver and think us old timers aren’t interested in what
you’re doing, you’re wrong. When I started caving, I had a tough time getting
on trips and the attention of some of the big-time cavers. I soon discovered
that after I started sending reports to the TC, I was suddenly welcomed by many
cavers and onto trips and projects. I’ve seen this happen over and over with
many other cavers since then. Publishing articles in the TC shows people what
you’re doing, that you in fact know what you’re doing as a skilled and
responsible caver, and increases their confidence and desire to spend time with
you and to invite you on trips. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does start
to happen after a few articles.
Again, my thanks to Mark for his excellent work on the TC.
George
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 05:59
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Mimi Jasek
Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and
distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few
years and whose opinions I highly respect.
In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by
crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi
Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the
past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER.
My responses are in BOLD TYPE.
Mark,
I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically
oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like
myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are
sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity,
and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we
take pictures.
Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for
the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we
haven't been there, it's "virgin" to us!
What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving
would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism
from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and
expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read
the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice
articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and
rambling report got slammed?
Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the
irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then,
there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA!
I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual
BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as
much).
I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an
attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know
the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if
somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry,
songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just
cavers writing about caving.
I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my
various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order
to send something in.
The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping.
Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so
beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only
content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC
for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful
caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that would
encourage more input.
Wholeheartedly agree again, Mimi. If people don't care enough to send material
in, I don't care enough to be the Editor after this next issue of the TC.
Think about what I've said here. Our world is so electronic now. People have
Internet, cable tv, Facebook, etc. It is so easy to produce quality articles
with all the tools we have at our disposal now. But people are busy living in
our fast paced world, and will not take time to contribute to something if made
to feel inferior or unappreciated. They have better ways to use their time for
their own personal enjoyment and fulfillment.
Wow, we agree again. It’s the dumbing down, ADD world that the digital age has
wrought. No one reads papers, reads books, or writes or reads anything of heft
and substance.
"Idiocracy" is becoming the new norm (look it up in Wikipedia) and people would
rather post some nonsensical post about their need for coffee on Facebook than
create anything of substance. Please!
If you bothered to finish this rambling mess, hopefully it will give you some
insight on how to reinvigorate the TC. One article I would love to see would
need to be done by Gil Ediger or someone else with long time knowledge of the
Texas Old Timers Reunion. (Sorry, I am an old timer and old fashioned. Not pc
at all.) I heard Gil talking to some newer cavers about the significance of all
the images in the cave drawing now on the back of the tshirts. Let's have an
article with a breakdown of the image - like an outline with numbers on each
part - and the story behind each image. Although an active Texas caver since
the 70s, I do not know who all the people are who are depicted, nor the stories
about them as to how or why they were chosen to be there. This article alone
could take up pages in an issue, and I think there are a lot of cavers who
don't know this information and would find it interesting.
That is an excellent idea and I like it a LOT!
Anyway, enough. After all the years I spent helping on the TC - from writing,
taking pics, typing, layout work, printing, assembling, mailing - I would hate
to see it go down. I still enjoy it! Attitudes must change to assure survival.
Of course I personally feel the caving world has gotten too lofty and proud and
political, but I am just a simple sport caver:) What do I know, and who cares?
You and James know a LOT and I appreciate your insight and observations, Mimi!
Imagine putting the TC out every month like Jim used to do! We used to write a
LOT of trip reports and articles from our own trips, projects, etc, for the
same reason - used them when no submissions!
I have done the same, Mimi, but doing it every month like y'all used to? Wow!
I will say that in this age of electronic wizardry, I really don't see why you
don't have submissions. It's so easy to send stuff in. So, either everyone is
putting the reports in grotto newsletters and not sharing with the TC, all
active cavers have lost your TC info, or all caving these days is "secret" and
not for sharing. Surely couldn't be laziness or apathy!
Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore!
UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and
they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the
Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a
great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto
used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it
also is no more.
At this rate, The TEXAS CAVER is headed for extinction and people can post
their pictures and fluff comments to FB.
They all seem to like FB better. Heck, my kids have been on a bunch of trips
and even I can't get them to write on!
With all the organized caving at preserves, projects, etc, with a report from
each of those trips you should have lots of material for each issue. Rather see
all that in the TC than on cavetex:) Pics included.
Amen, sister!
Amazing that you agreed with me on so much! I am an older caver, and have
always been a bit quiet due to not wanting to make waves:) Jim knows I can get
in trouble if I open up too much:) My opinions can be a bit harsh.
Sound fine to me!
First, you can't just post on cavetex and ask people to submit something:) Has
to be more personal. Jim used to write over 365 letters a year asking for
submissions and helping folks with ideas for articles. Of course, that was with
snail mail! How easy can e-mail be in comparison?
I have appealed by email to folks that have either posted trip announcements,
been on a trip, or have conducted talks, etc. at Grotto meetings. I would say
my batting average is at 5% response.
The last couple of months, it has been a big, fat zero response.
Some people who complain the most about some things contribute little. (I did
not say that, though:))
Once again, Amen, sister!
I really feel cavers are so into their own projects - secret and public - that
they simply do not want to publish info so as not to be bothered with others
wanting to join in. Just too busy, as stated before. I am older, kids grown and
gone, but still work full time and have family responsibilities that leave not
much me time. So I get it. But some efforts are worth the rewards.
Agreed and been there, done that. I still found time to write trip reports when
I was the DFWG’s Oztotl Caver editor. Once one sits down to write it, it
usually goes very fast.
Also, I realize many of our caving movers and shakers are either older and feel
they have already given enough, or are younger and want some life outside of
caving, so again choose not to give it any more time than they do. But again,
three months to come up with something seems reasonable, right?
I know what you say in reference to the armchair/chronologically challenged
cavers not being very active anymore. But, heck, I would be happy to receive
submission of past adventures in exploration for The Carbide Corner column,
but, to no avail there, either. Fritz Holt and Mark Minton have supplied me
pieces, as has Bill Steele, but, that’s about it!
Gil is not the only one to approach about the OT graphic. Ask around in the
UTG, whoever makes the shirt, or put that part of my suggestion out there. See
if a group will come forward and do it! I could be labeled as stupid and out of
the loop for not knowing, but Waco is not a caving community!
Neither is the Dallas area where I live, but, hopefully someone will step up
and write a piece and supply me the graphic.
I just don't know if there is the interest in the TC anymore to keep it alive,
but time will tell. Jim tells me there is gobs of caving going on in Texas, but
unless your involved, you don't hear about it.
You’re right, Mimi. There is a gob of caving going on, but no one wants to
write a report on it, or, the ones that have written reports in the past are
tired of doing all of the documenting and want/need someone else to do it.
I know I fall in the latter category.
Gas prices on our limited budget make us pick and choose where and when we go
places.
Agreed.
Hmmm - maybe people could write anonymous articles, as in no cave names,
county, or road locations. Just somewhere in Texas kind of thing. That could
preserve their project's anonymity, but still give folks some entertaining
moments of underground activity. No directionality even on maps! Even leave
off names of those on trips - like true fiction stuff! Worth a suggestion? (Jim
just said yuck to this, for no one likes to hear about the secret caving of
others - even fictionalized! But if you don't know if it's real, gets your
attention, right?)
Excellent idea!
Ok, enough. We do not want to be in charge of anything anymore, but don't mind
giving out ideas or suggestions. Because we live so far from most caving and
have limited travel resources, we have to sometimes miss things we used to
attend always. We do what we can, and lend support where feasible.
I sincerely enjoy your thoughts and observations and, maybe, with the future of
The TEXAS CAVER being on the chopping block, this message would elicit a
response.
If no response, the masses will have spoken.
Either way, it will generate some interest and, by God, the TC needs it!
I'll hope for interest and submissions. Just hard to understand why the newer,
younger generation of Texas cavers are not as passionate about sharing their
experiences as we older ones. Not all of us are on fb or have smart phones, and
I still think one of the best parts of a trip is the vocal - or printed -
rehashing of the experience. Oh, and the bath!:)
Thanks!
Mimi and Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have read the responses to Denise's and Mark's appeals with interest.
Probably the hardest part of being Caver editor is getting articles, or
maybe it is that sneaking feeling that comes with most volunteer positions
that "nobody understands or appreciates.".
I will do an occasional series of interviews, both of newer and "seasoned"
cavers. I will have the first one to Mark by the end of the month. I
would also welcome suggestions of newer cavers to interview from grottos
not near SA.
Perhaps somebody could do some compilation from grotto newsletters (don't
read it if you think it is a bad idea)', somebody might do a gear review or
safety/techniques review occasionally, a review of events, and some of the
other ideas I read. Taking the initiative to take on one od these tasks is
pretty simple once you get past the idea that nobody wants to read that.
A few picture essays in the online part of the TC might be nice too..
It is always busy, but I do like the Caver.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for taking the initiative, Linda.
Looking forward to your "Up Close and Personal" interviews and ones from
anyone else that would like to conduct some.
To expand on your quote,
"Taking the initiative to take on one of these tasks is pretty simple
once you get past the idea that nobody wants to read that."
Trust me when I tell you, "If you send it, I will print it".
In over 5 years of doing this, there's only ever been a couple of items
that I have decided not to print.
Explanations to the authors was provided.
Mark
From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 9:29 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Caver, articles, and interest
I have read the responses to Denise's and Mark's appeals with interest.
Probably the hardest part of being Caver editor is getting articles, or
maybe it is that sneaking feeling that comes with most volunteer
positions that "nobody understands or appreciates.".
I will do an occasional series of interviews, both of newer and
"seasoned" cavers. I will have the first one to Mark by the end of the
month. I would also welcome suggestions of newer cavers to interview
from grottos not near SA.
Perhaps somebody could do some compilation from grotto newsletters
(don't read it if you think it is a bad idea)', somebody might do a gear
review or safety/techniques review occasionally, a review of events, and
some of the other ideas I read. Taking the initiative to take on one od
these tasks is pretty simple once you get past the idea that nobody
wants to read that.
A few picture essays in the online part of the TC might be nice too..
It is always busy, but I do like the Caver.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Linda's post reminded me of a feature that ran for a while
in the Texas Caver many years ago. There was a grotto report section
that contained a short synopsis of what had transpired at each of the
major grotto meetings. Each grotto had a volunteer reporter who took
notes and then sent them in. It was nothing detailed, but at least
gave everyone a sense of what trips, trainings, etc. were happening
around the state. I think it faded away as grotto reporters either
lost interest or quit going to meetings regularly. This would be
easy to implement as long as there were regular meeting attendees
willing to jot things down. If grottos are so formal as to have a
secretary that records meeting minutes, then it would be a simple
matter to make the report from them. Anyway, just an idea for a
relatively easy regular feature.
Mark
At 11:46 AM 5/18/2012, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
Thanks for taking the initiative, Linda.
Looking forward to your "Up Close and Personal" interviews and ones
from anyone else that would like to conduct some.
To expand on your quote,
"Taking the initiative to take on one of these tasks is pretty
simple once you get past the idea that nobody wants to read that."
Trust me when I tell you, "If you send it, I will print it".
In over 5 years of doing this, there's only ever been a couple of
items that I have decided not to print.
Explanations to the authors was provided.
Mark
From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 9:29 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] Caver, articles, and interest
I have read the responses to Denise's and Mark's appeals with
interest. Probably the hardest part of being Caver editor is getting
articles, or maybe it is that sneaking feeling that comes with most
volunteer positions that "nobody understands or appreciates.".
I will do an occasional series of interviews, both of newer and
"seasoned" cavers. I will have the first one to Mark by the end of
the month. I would also welcome suggestions of newer cavers to
interview from grottos not near SA.
Perhaps somebody could do some compilation from grotto newsletters
(don't read it if you think it is a bad idea)', somebody might do a
gear review or safety/techniques review occasionally, a review of
events, and some of the other ideas I read. Taking the initiative to
take on one od these tasks is pretty simple once you get past the
idea that nobody wants to read that.
A few picture essays in the online part of the TC might be nice too..
It is always busy, but I do like the Caver.
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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[Forwarded from Geary Schindel, NSS AVP]
NSS Webinar: "Alaska Caving, America's Final Frontier"
Join us on Wednesay, June 6th! 9PM Eastern
Space is limited.
Reserve your Webinar seat now at:
https://www4.gotomeeting.com/register/738011247
Carlene and Kevin Allred are diehard Alaska cave explorers. They have
been caving since the 70?s and have spearheaded the exploration and
mapping of hundreds of caves in Utah, California, Washington state,
Hawaii and of course Alaska.
Carlene has won three medals in the NSS Cartographic Salon for her cave maps.
They will be talking about their explorations and scientific findings
during their almost 40 years of caving. This will be a great
presentation with stunning cave pictures and great facts about the
caves in the ?upper? part of America.
Together, and with their kids, they have organized numerous
expeditions in the Western U.S. and Alaska. Many of these expeditions
have been in Alaska?s hostile and amazingly beautiful, Wrangle
Mountain area. They are truly an amazing couple.
Please come and enjoy this webinar from the comfort of your own home
on your computer.
Wednesday, June 6th at 8PM Central Time (7PM Mountain time, 6PM Pacific Time)
Please forward this to others that you think would like to attend.
If you have any questions please contact Debbie Spoons, ddspo...@yahoo.com
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The March, 2012 issue of the climbing magazine Rock and Ice
has an article (p. 44-54) about rock climbers climbing in some of the
enormous caves in China. They are depicted climbing on formations in
one photo. These caves are so huge that they might not do much
damage other than leaving their ubiquitous chalk marks all over the
walls. The issue may be viewed for free at
<http://www.rockandice.com/rock-and-ice-digital-editions>
Mark
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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Before you all get frosted up, my view of it is that this is a big non-issue.
And if someone should disagree, there is also nothing you can do about it.
All over SE Asia (China, Vietnam, Laos, and elsewhere) much of the best rock
(and most accessible) climbing is on limestone. It's outside and the cliffs
usually have solution overhangs and cave entrances adorned with secondary
calcite. A lot of climbing companies exist, many with European as well as
local guides and instructors. Rock climbers from all over the world are
showing up. I met a young couple from Moose, Wyoming, climbing in the karst
of Laos in December. They happened to know some of my ageing climbing friends
from the 50s in the Tetons.
You can also free-climb limestone pinnacles in Ha Lo ng Bay in Vietnam and
fall into the ocean when you peel off. It's great sport.
The only folks I know of climbing down inside the caves are the intrepid few
doing state-of-the-art exploration in some of the most spectacular caves on
Earth.
Let's kill this thread now.
DirtDoc
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Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon
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God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God
rested, the Devil created religion.
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You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
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The photo that looks like the climber is on formations is on
page 46. At least to me, it looks like the type of very old,
weathered formations one often sees around large cave entrances. My
guess is that they didn't want people to be able to easily make
copies of the magazine, which one could do easily from a PDF. I
couldn't find any way to save the article electronically other than
to print each couple of pages to PDF.
Mark
At 12:58 PM 5/19/2012, Mixon Bill wrote:
Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon
Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
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