texascavers Digest 21 May 2012 01:16:46 -0000 Issue 1553
Topics (messages 20017 through 20019):
Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
20017 by: George Veni
20019 by: Jill Orr
Re: looking for caving stuff
20018 by: Bill Bentley
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--- Begin Message ---
Freddie wrote:
“It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.”
I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may
be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear
I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI.
My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI.
NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However,
while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally
reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are
made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new
Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off).
As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute
within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New
Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters.
For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is
administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New
Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and
have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and
are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using
its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our
headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent
non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial
“too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful
partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners
in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do
things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit.
When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority.
When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to
international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is
given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an
advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible
caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There
are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain
situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the
cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we
can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had
before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t
involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do
what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff
don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If
we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it
case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful
consideration of the many possible consequences.
If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For
a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and
under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available
for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me,
contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be
after June 7th.
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04
To: gv...@nckri.org
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.
--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni <gv...@nckri.org> wrote:
From: George Veni <gv...@nckri.org>
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: "'freddie poer'" <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM
Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave
science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the
importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides
the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get
the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those
cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many
other things in and related to caves.
Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this
relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms)
as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view,
anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the
big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration
projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of
visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus
training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities.
Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter
implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a
cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is
better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography,
restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy
being there. And I find it all “recreational.”
George
***************************
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28
To: gv...@nckri.org
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving?
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni <gv...@nckri.org
<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gv...@nckri.org> > wrote:
From: George Veni <gv...@nckri.org
<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gv...@nckri.org> >
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: "'Texas Cavers'" <Texascavers@texascavers.com
<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Texascavers@texascavers.com> >
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM
Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science
articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science
articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues
through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an
abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun”
(non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas,
with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs,
TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be
interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,”
a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas
caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this
would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science
articles.
So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles
with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was
impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information
provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos
and providing them to us in a beautiful format.
It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers.
And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now
where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s
efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it
helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you
to send in material.
1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may
want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to
the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of
trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of the TC.
2) If you a new caver and think us old timers aren’t interested in what
you’re doing, you’re wrong. When I started caving, I had a tough time getting
on trips and the attention of some of the big-time cavers. I soon discovered
that after I started sending reports to the TC, I was suddenly welcomed by many
cavers and onto trips and projects. I’ve seen this happen over and over with
many other cavers since then. Publishing articles in the TC shows people what
you’re doing, that you in fact know what you’re doing as a skilled and
responsible caver, and increases their confidence and desire to spend time with
you and to invite you on trips. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does start
to happen after a few articles.
Again, my thanks to Mark for his excellent work on the TC.
George
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Allan for the kudos on the newsletter.
I’m going to take exception to Stefan’s comment regarding it being selfish for
individual Grottos to publish their own newsletter since Bexar Grotto appears
to be the only grotto publishing regularly.
It takes a lot of work to get anyone to submit an article. I have several
supporters in BG who regularly submit articles or photos, and encourage other
members to write. The Texas Caver comes out quarterly, - I work at getting a
monthly newsletter out when the news is fresh; and it is for the people who are
most interested in it. I’ve also managed the layout for the TCMA newsletter for
the last several years, even one edition from California. Hardly selfish.
Maybe you are just trying to stir up some controversy Stephan. Ok I’ll bite,
let’s have some fun. : )
Are you writing articles for the Texas Caver? Then perhaps you may have a
point to call the Bexar Grotto selfish for keeping the Bexar Facts going. No
actually you don’t. You sound a little like a spoiled, jealous kid who can’t
have something someone else has……and so doesn’t want anyone else to have it and
resort to name calling trying to instill guilt. Our newsletter helps keep our
grotto members informed, connected, and interested. I have no intention of
stopping. (Notice I didn’t call you a name. I said you sound like…)
If you are not writing perhaps you should start??
Happy Caving Stephan and I hope to share a drink with you at CM in June!
Jill
From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:49 PM
To: freddie poer
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own
newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.
Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas
Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter
serve?
My 2p.
-Stefan
From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM
To: Bill Bentley
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report,
Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with.
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net> wrote:
From: Bill Bentley <ca...@caver.net>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: "freddie poer" <freddiepoe...@yahoo.com>
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
Don't give up..
Bill
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Kathy,
It was really good to hear from you, I think we ate lunch together at one of
the TSA conventions many years ago or that is what my memory is telling me.
I have cc'd this email to the PBSS the Texas and the SWR emailing lists.
Tony Grieco is living in Hobbs and was a school teacher for many years after
getting laid off from Citi Services back in the 80's. He is now working for an
environmental company. He is into riding bikes and doesn't cave any more but,
his son Andrew has become quite a caver in his own right.
I lost track of Suzy Nolden after she got married to Jim Sigman and maybe
Jerry Atkinson can help there as he knew her husband Jim better than me. I did
hear they had both retired, sold their home and hit the road traveling.
Have you heard from Eleanor Nestlerode? Last I heard she was a Deputy Sheriff
in New Mexico near Rio Ranch? or someplace up there.
Bill Greenlee is deceased.
Pat Kambesis is back East in Kentucky the last I heard and she is on my
facebook page as a friend.
Are you on facebook? Below is my link..
http://www.facebook.com/caverbill
So sorry to hear about Lori
I have lots of pictures from the 80's over in the Guads and a few I think of
that has Lori in it...
It may take a while to find them.
Hopefully this email will help you out there.
Always,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: schwe...@yahoo.com
To: ca...@caver.net
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:27 PM
Subject: looking for caving stuff
Hi Bill, How are you? I am Kathy Schwehr, PBSS member of a while ago when
Tony Grieco, Suzy Noldan, Bill Greenlee, Pat Kambesis and more were in the
Grotto. Lori Vian died in Mar of brain cancer and I am looking for memorbelia
for her family and for myself, I guess. Would love any pics you have of us and
pics of caves we were in in NM. Also would like cave maps or pics of others in
the group. If you have any, would be very grateful. Would also like to know how
to get ahold of Suzy and Jim or Pls contact them and give them my email. Would
really appreciate this. Thanks, Kathy
--- End Message ---
