texascavers Digest 26 May 2011 16:43:47 -0000 Issue 1322
Topics (messages 17903 through 17917):
Good news
17903 by: David
wrong link - oops
17904 by: David
Re: 50th Anniversary CAVER now available.
17905 by: Don Cooper
17906 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
Re: Good news and It was just an experiment, folks. Calm down.
17907 by: Rod Goke
17908 by: caverarch
Reminder- TCMA Elections Policy and Procedures Committee
17909 by: A. Wertheim
Mayan funerary offering found near Mexico's Chichen Itza :
17910 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
sewerlunking and other underground tours around the world
17911 by: Dale Barnard
Some humans can echo-locate like bats!
17912 by: Stefan Creaser
Finding Lost Cities in Eygpt with infrared
17913 by: John P Brooks
blind people echolocating
17914 by: Mixon Bill
Roger Brucker's book Trapped to be a movie
17915 by: Lee H. Skinner
TCR at Flat Creek Ranch, October 14-16, 2011
17916 by: ellie :)
17917 by: Allan B. Cobb
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Begin Message ---
I am going to lay low for as long as possible and be off of CaveTex
for as long as I can resist the
urge to post something. I am temporarily unsubscribing.
In the meantime, you can find me posting the usual crap on one of the
links below:
http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q=%22cavetex%20-%22&type=all&init=srp
I call those sub-groups, but there is not yet a Facebook name for
that. I will be putting
more sub-groups, so check that link above again next week.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sfrm=1
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_213300932024864
Safe caving,
David Locklear
not officially retired just yet
P.S. Anyone can create a group by simply going to :
http://www.facebook.com/groups
and clicking the green rectangle "Create Group"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.facebook.com/search.php?q=cavetex&init=quick&tas=0.7454738011583686
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok - but only if he changes the name of his outings to "Speleofestivus"!
(J/K)
-WaV
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would suggest that we all start playing nice and quit dog piling, David
> Locklear.
>
>
>
> All in favor?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> *From:* John Brooks [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:47 AM
> *To:* Carl Kunath
> *Cc:* TexasCavers
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] 50th Anniversary CAVER now available.
>
>
>
> Nice! I "LIKE", in the real sense, receiving ACTUAL caving "news" about
> ACTUAL caving in the mail.....as opposed to electronic pseudo "caving" news
> about pseudo "caving" events that have nothing to do with caving except that
> a Caver, pseudo Caver or two attended.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Caving parties for the rest of us!
(From another big Seinfeld fan)
Mark
From: Don Cooper [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:45 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS
Cc: Cavers, Texas
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 50th Anniversary CAVER now available.
Ok - but only if he changes the name of his outings to "Speleofestivus"!
(J/K)
-WaV
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:02 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
I would suggest that we all start playing nice and quit dog piling,
David Locklear.
All in favor?
Mark
From: John Brooks [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:47 AM
To: Carl Kunath
Cc: TexasCavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] 50th Anniversary CAVER now available.
Nice! I "LIKE", in the real sense, receiving ACTUAL caving "news" about
ACTUAL caving in the mail.....as opposed to electronic pseudo "caving"
news about pseudo "caving" events that have nothing to do with caving
except that a Caver, pseudo Caver or two attended.
Sent from my iPhone
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Obviously, you can make your own decisions about whether to use Texascavers or Facebook or some combination of both. It hardly inspires confidence in the credibility and security of Facebook, however, when you describe how easy it would be for "any teenager" to maliciously create a Facebook group called "Join Al Kaeda" and use it to defame people who never had anything to do with it. Nor does it motivate people to invest their time in learning and using newly created Facebook groups when you talk about how easily you "could delete the groups out of spite." Your earlier message didn't exactly make us eager to jump onto the Facebook bandwagon, either, when you wrote, "I emphasize that Facebook is just a fad, like the pet rock." Personally, I think I'll stick with the Texascavers listserve group and will continue to avoid Facebook for now and the foreseeable future.
Much of what you like to write probably is better suited to Facebook or to an OT list than it is to the main Texascavers listserve, but that certainly is not true of everything you write. There is no reason why use of one has to preclude use of the other. People just need to use good judgement about what they post where.
I don't know whether Facebook is here to stay or whether it will soon go the way of Myspace or even the pet rock, but I certainly recognize that it is currently popular among numerous people of all ages, especially the young. I agree with you that it "has potential for the time-being to educate potential cavers." In fact, that already has been happening during the last few years here in the Austin area. There already have been a number of instances when new people have shown up at UT Grotto meetings after learning about us through Facebook and through contact with the many local cavers who already use Facebook. I think this generally has been good for our Grotto. For cavers who knowingly choose to use Facebook (and who seemingly are oblivious to its privacy and security risks), I see nothing wrong with them using Facebook to communicate with other Facebook users about caving and caving organizations. I think this is a good thing that should be encouraged. Basically, if you are going to use Facebook (or other social media) anyway, it's good to use it in a constructive way that helps to educate interested people about caves and caving and encourages them to participate in caving organizations.
What I strongly believe that we should NOT do is to use caving events, caving organizations, or the Texascavers listserve group to pressure people into joining Facebook (or any other commercialized social media). Those who choose to use Facebook should understand and respect the fact that others do not want to use it or to encourage certain of their objectionable policies and practices. The pressure has come not only from the kind of repeated explicit promotion of Facebook we've seen recently on Texascavers, but also from the much more subtile and usually unintentional fact that cavers not on Facebook are simply overlooked and inadvertently left out of activities that are announced only on Facebook. Most problems of this type can be prevented if people simply follow the following guidelines:
1. If you use Facebook to announce anything of general interest to Texas cavers, then please also copy it to the Texascavers listserve. If you think the announcement is unsuitable for posting on Texascavers because it's only of local relevance, then please consider announcing it at local grotto meetings and/or using ordinary email to notify local caver friends who are not on Facebook.
2. If you want to share something (such as photos, videos, audio recordings, etc.) with cavers by placing the material somewhere on the Internet and then posting a link to it on Texascavers, then be sure that readers don't have to sign up with Facebook or any similar commercial service before accessing the material.
I see no reason why the users and nonusers of Facebook can't coexist peacefully within the caving community if they simply exercise good judgement and respect each other's preferences.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
>From: David
>Sent: May 24, 2011 3:39 PM
>To: Cavers Texas
>Subject: [Texascavers] It was just an experiment, folks. Calm down.
>
>Folks, I am sounding arrogant and hard-headed in my e-mails, but that
>is not the case.
>
>I can delete the Facebook groups I described at the push of a button.
> But I would like the
>Facebook users out there to look at it before I delete them. Maybe
>the idea can be tweeked,
>or at least discussed civilly.
>
>In fact, even if you thought the idea was brilliant, I could delete
>the groups out of spite or
>for whatever reason.
>
>Some of you will be surprised to learn, that I can create a Facebook
>group, for example,
>"Join Al Kaeda," and create dozens of fake members all wearing turbans
>and named Ali
>Kaleb Jr., then I would make you the administrator of the group, using
>the same method
>the anonymous caver used to defame me, last week on CaveTex. Then
>it could be broadcasted
>out to the whole world, and then I could unjoin the group, leaving you
>as only real member
>and leader of the legions of members on Al Kaeda on Facebook. Does
>that leave you
>shaking in your muddy cave boots ? Any teenager could do it, and
>probably already has.
>
>
>The problem with CaveTex is that people don't want to be bombarded
>with e-mails, so it
>makes a stagnant situation for new ideas. The only ideas that get
>heard are those
>of the Texas Speleo-Police ( here-in, May 24th, 2011, known as, TSP ).
> The other
>problems are the people like the one that told me to "go away."
>They lurk on listservs,
>but never say anything that is interesting. And, another problem is
>that newbies are
>scared to say anything, especially that they went in
>a cave without the permission of the TSP.
>
>David Locklear
>moving to Facebook sooner than you think
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've known Rod since 1968, and he can always be counted on to provide a voice
of calm reason on any topic which he chooses to comment upon. This is not the
first, nor will it be the last time I hope that people listen to what he has to
say.
Roger Moore
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Goke <[email protected]>
To: David <[email protected]>; Cavers Texas <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 5:45 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Good news and It was just an experiment, folks. Calm
down.
David,
Obviously, you can make your own decisions about whether to use Texascavers or
Facebook or some combination of both. It hardly inspires confidence in the
credibility and security of Facebook, however, when you describe how easy it
would be for "any teenager" to maliciously create a Facebook group called "Join
Al Kaeda" and use it to defame people who never had anything to do with it. Nor
does it motivate people to invest their time in learning and using newly
created Facebook groups when you talk about how easily you "could delete the
groups out of spite." Your earlier message didn't exactly make us eager to jump
onto the Facebook bandwagon, either, when you wrote, "I emphasize that Facebook
is just a fad, like the pet rock." Personally, I think I'll stick with the
Texascavers listserve group and will continue to avoid Facebook for now and the
foreseeable future.
Much of what you like to write probably is better suited to Facebook or to an
OT list than it is to the main Texascavers listserve, but that certainly is not
true of everything you write. There is no reason why use of one has to preclude
use of the other. People just need to use good judgement about what they post
where.
I don't know whether Facebook is here to stay or whether it will soon go the
way of Myspace or even the pet rock, but I certainly recognize that it is
currently popular among numerous people of all ages, especially the young. I
agree with you that it "has potential for the time-being to educate potential
cavers." In fact, that already has been happening during the last few years
here in the Austin area. There already have been a number of instances when new
people have shown up at UT Grotto meetings after learning about us through
Facebook and through contact with the many local cavers who already use
Facebook. I think this generally has been good for our Grotto. For cavers who
knowingly choose to use Facebook (and who seemingly are oblivious to its
privacy and security risks), I see nothing wrong with them using Facebook to
communicate with other Facebook users about caving and caving organizations. I
think this is a good thing that should be encouraged. Basically, if you are
going to use Facebook (or other social media) anyway, it's good to use it in a
constructive way that helps to educate interested people about caves and caving
and encourages them to participate in caving organizations.
What I strongly believe that we should NOT do is to use caving events, caving
organizations, or the Texascavers listserve group to pressure people into
joining Facebook (or any other commercialized social media). Those who choose
to use Facebook should understand and respect the fact that others do not want
to use it or to encourage certain of their objectionable policies and
practices. The pressure has come not only from the kind of repeated explicit
promotion of Facebook we've seen recently on Texascavers, but also from the
much more subtile and usually unintentional fact that cavers not on Facebook
are simply overlooked and inadvertently left out of activities that are
announced only on Facebook. Most problems of this type can be prevented if
people simply follow the following guidelines:
1. If you use Facebook to announce anything of general interest to Texas
cavers, then please also copy it to the Texascavers listserve. If you think the
announcement is unsuitable for posting on Texascavers because it's only of
local relevance, then please consider announcing it at local grotto meetings
and/or using ordinary email to notify local caver friends who are not on
Facebook.
2. If you want to share something (such as photos, videos, audio recordings,
etc.) with cavers by placing the material somewhere on the Internet and then
posting a link to it on Texascavers, then be sure that readers don't have to
sign up with Facebook or any similar commercial service before accessing the
material.
I see no reason why the users and nonusers of Facebook can't coexist peacefully
within the caving community if they simply exercise good judgement and respect
each other's preferences.
Rod
-----Original Message-----
>From: David
>Sent: May 24, 2011 3:39 PM
>To: Cavers Texas
>Subject: [Texascavers] It was just an experiment, folks. Calm down.
>
>Folks, I am sounding arrogant and hard-headed in my e-mails, but that
>is not the case.
>
>I can delete the Facebook groups I described at the push of a button.
> But I would like the
>Facebook users out there to look at it before I delete them. Maybe
>the idea can be tweeked,
>or at least discussed civilly.
>
>In fact, even if you thought the idea was brilliant, I could delete
>the groups out of spite or
>for whatever reason.
>
>Some of you will be surprised to learn, that I can create a Facebook
>group, for example,
>"Join Al Kaeda," and create dozens of fake members all wearing turbans
>and named Ali
>Kaleb Jr., then I would make you the administrator of the group, using
>the same method
>the anonymous caver used to defame me, last week on CaveTex. Then
>it could be broadcasted
>out to the whole world, and then I could unjoin the group, leaving you
>as only real member
>and leader of the legions of members on Al Kaeda on Facebook. Does
>that leave you
>shaking in your muddy cave boots ? Any teenager could do it, and
>probably already has.
>
>
>The problem with CaveTex is that people don't want to be bombarded
>with e-mails, so it
>makes a stagnant situation for new ideas. The only ideas that get
>heard are those
>of the Texas Speleo-Police ( here-in, May 24th, 2011, known as, TSP ).
> The other
>problems are the people like the one that told me to "go away."
>They lurk on listservs,
>but never say anything that is interesting. And, another problem is
>that newbies are
>scared to say anything, especially that they went in
>a cave without the permission of the TSP.
>
>David Locklear
>moving to Facebook sooner than you think
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected]
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------Visit our
website: http://texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail:
[email protected] additional commands, e-mail:
[email protected]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a reminder that the TCMA members in attendance at the members meeting
during the 2011 TSA Spring Convention voted to set up an Elections PnP
Committee. The function of the committee is to spell out the who, what, where,
when, and how relating to members electing of Directors to the TCMA Board. The
Bylaws revision approved by the membership at that time left substantial leeway
in the manner of electing your Directors. This is an opportunity to provide
input from the general membership into how director elections are conducted.
Some suggestions included paper versus mailed versus electronic ballots. Also,
a fall members meeting held somewhere other than TCR, or election results
during/after TCR. Are candidates going to be posting bios on the TCMA website?
Will candidates have the opportunity to speak publicly before the election?
There are several basic questions to be answered.
This committee requires 10 non-board members (I have 5 interested persons at
this time). We will discuss procedures via email and submit final decisions to
the TCMA Board of Directors by July 7. If too few members are interested then
the Elections PnP will be sent back to the Board for determination.
Please reply to [email protected] if you are interested in clarifying
this process. Last call will be June 7, 2011.
Best regards,
Arron Wertheim, TCMA Director
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mayan funerary offering found inside Mexican sinkhole cave
Published May 25, 2011
(http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/entertainment/2011/05/25/mayan-funerary-offering-inside-mexican-sinkhole-cave/#ixzz1NRLkUBya)
Mexico City – Mexican archaeologists exploring a sinkhole cave, or
"cenote," in the Yucatan Peninsula pre-Columbian site of _Chichen Itza_
(http://www.foxnews.com/topics/attractions/chichen-itza.htm#r_src=ramp)
discovered
a funerary offering consisting of six human bones as well as vessels, jade
beads, knives and other artifacts.
"According to experts, the offering was made as a rain-invoking ritual in
the 9th and 10th centuries, when the Maya had suffered two periods of
drought," the National Institute of Anthropology and History, or INAH, said in
a
statement.
The objects were found "carefully and selectively placed" at the bottom of
a flooded cave that is linked by a 25-meter-long (82-foot-long) tunnel to
a cenote near the Kukulkan pyramid, INAH said.
The institute added that the discovery was made during cave and cenote
exploration work being carried out by INAH and the Autonomous University of
the Yucatan.
Bone remains of at least six individuals - "probably sacrificed during a
couple of intense periods of water shortages between 900-1200 years ago" -
as well as ceramic objects, jade and shell beads, flint knives and animal
bones, were found at the site.
At the bottom of the cenote, at a depth of about 50 meters (165 feet),
archaeologists also found bone remains of another 20 individuals and more than
100 animal bones, ceramic objects and sculptures, "most notably one of a
standard bearer with features similar to (that of) a jaguar," INAH said.
Archaeologists also discovered another figure with "goggled eyes, similar
to the faces that appear on the Tlaloc-type vessels" found at the
Balankanche network of sacred caves, also in the Yucatan Peninsula.
Due to their characteristics, these discoveries recall the finds made at
Chichen Itza's Sacred Cenote, the region's most important, the institute
added.
Marine archaeologist Guillermo de Anda, who has worked in the area for the
past four years, said these types of funerary offerings - which have been
found in five cenotes in the Yucatan - are indicative of "a ceremonial
practice (that has been) recently identified and is under study."
He added that it is clear that the people whose remains were discovered
"were not thrown from the surface, but instead were placed along the walls of
the cenote."
_http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/entertainment/2011/05/25/mayan-funerary-of
fering-inside-mexican-sinkhole-cave/_
(http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/entertainment/2011/05/25/mayan-funerary-offering-inside-mexican-sinkhole-cave/)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today's Bing.com home page leads to this nice collection of 15 underground
tours you can take around the world. Fun stuff.
http://www.bing.com/travel/content/search?q=Underground+Attractions%3a+Cu+Chi+Tunnels%2c+Vietnam&FORM=TRREST
<http://www.bing.com/travel/content/search?q=Underground+Attractions%3a+Cu+Chi+Tunnels%2c+Vietnam&FORM=TRREST>
Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13539921
-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any
medium. Thank you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13522957
This is an interesting approach being used to find "Lost Cities" and forgotten
pyramids in Egypt. The program airs on the BBC on May 30, 2011.
It would be interesting to see if this technique could be used to find caves.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure blind people echolocate. Why do you think they tap the metal tip
of their canes on the ground all the time? I've read a blind writer's
description, too, of "sound shadows," by which he can tell where
someone is standing because ambient noise from that direction is
partially blocked. An interested experiment that demonstrates that our
brains filter out a lot of potential information that is irrelevant to
us, but not to blind people: If a tape recording is made of someone
walking down a hallway and played backward, the echoes of his
footsteps from the end wall of the hall are obvious, because they come
before the steps, not after. Played forward, sighted people have
"learned" not to hear them, because there's no need to. They can see
the end wall.--Bill
----------------------------------------
Q: Why is the universe here? A: Where else could it be?
----------------------------------------
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: [email protected]
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Brucker's book Trapped (about Floyd Collins) will be a movie to be
filmed in Kentucky.
Details at:
http://tinyurl.com/4xl4jpd
Lee Skinner
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*Texas Caver Reunion (TCR)*
*October 14-16, 2011*
*Flat Creek Ranch, Johnson City, TX*
Hey Cavers,
Here is the first announcement for the 34th Annual Texas Caver's Reunion!
This year TCR will be on the 500+ acre Flat Creek Ranch in Johnson City, TX
(www.txsranch.com) on the weekend of October 14th-16th, 2011. There will be
lots of shady camping, swimming, and great times!!!
We will have the usual fun stuff. It's going to be awesome.
More info will be coming soon.
Hope to see you there and have a great Memorial Day Weekend!
Ellie Watson
(Allan's Slave)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I’ve made it Ellie’s job to make sure there is no dust at TCR. If there is
dust, please direct all dust complaints to Ellie!
Allan
From: ellie :)
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Texascavers] TCR at Flat Creek Ranch, October 14-16, 2011
Texas Caver Reunion (TCR)
October 14-16, 2011
Flat Creek Ranch, Johnson City, TX
Hey Cavers,
Here is the first announcement for the 34th Annual Texas Caver's Reunion! This
year TCR will be on the 500+ acre Flat Creek Ranch in Johnson City, TX
(www.txsranch.com) on the weekend of October 14th-16th, 2011. There will be
lots of shady camping, swimming, and great times!!!
We will have the usual fun stuff. It's going to be awesome.
More info will be coming soon.
Hope to see you there and have a great Memorial Day Weekend!
Ellie Watson
(Allan's Slave)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
