Hi Bill, and thanks.
Steve mentioned a "cleaned up version". Here it is. Feel free to use it as a
petition, as I mentioned to Steve.
Carl...
>> Having read the petition:
>>
>> Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is
>> spread by human traffic should adhere more closely to scientific method,
>> including all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who advocate only some
>> cave closures, and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who
>> advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below.
>>
>> The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding
>> the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting I have read about
>> WNS, there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise,
>> presented to conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed
>> spread by human traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were
>> there has not been any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject.
>>
>> First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves,
>> which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has
>> also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further
>> infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step
>> that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an
>> experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything
>> falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to
>> conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the
>> experiment is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated
>> with the same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is
>> only after all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions
>> and valid, supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures.
>>
>> As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or
>> disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is
>> invalid.
>>
>> To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, Prove the
>> point, using valid scientific method. Until then the petition listed below
>> is extremist, unsupported by any accompanying
>> scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into caves is
>> partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves.
>> If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong,
>> with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data.
>> Carl Pagano.....Caver, 20+years Hospital based Health Care
>> Professional, Albuquerque, New Mexico
>>
On May 28, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Bill Ellis wrote:
> To all;
>
> Very well stated Carl. We have a real need to return to the scientific
> method when considering data and making environmental policy decisions.
> Making assumptions, having feel good knee jerk reactions and using models
> does not yield the desired results in most cases. I'm still waiting for the
> global warming extremists to use data not obtained by modeling to support
> their arguments. Time to clean up the scientific act as well.
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Carl Pagano
> To: s...@caver.net
> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [SWR] WNS
>
> To all:
> Having read the petition: By the time the lawyers line up, litigation takes
> place, etc. the disease will either have already spread to the west, or we'll
> have learned correctly that this petition is one of extremism, and that the
> spread of WNS cannot be stopped by the blanket closure of caves. External
> quarantine of cavers is easy. You cannot quarantine the bats living in the
> caves. Why is it, that these "scientists" cannot understand this? Bats move,
> just like people do, to better digs when they want to, incredibly, without
> the aid of any humans including lawyers or scientists with as yet unproven
> theories.
>
> Perhaps all who advocate the closure of caves without proving that it is
> spread by cavers should, to paraphrase the expression, "Wake Up, and Smell
> The Guano". This does include all BLM, Forest Service, and NPS officials who
> advocate only some cave closures (God forbid Carlsbad is EVER closed as $$$
> are involved here), and the extremist scientists and litigation lawyers who
> advocate blanket closures and wrote the petition listed below.
>
> The petition does not show one bit of supportive scientific data regarding
> the spread by humans. To date during all of the posting on SWR about WNS,
> there has not been one bit of data, i.e. a study or otherwise, presented to
> conclusively and without a doubt, show that WNS is indeed spread by human
> traffic into caves. This would involve studying caves were there has not been
> any human traffic, i.e. a control group or subject.
>
> First, it would involve making an observation, that there is WNS in caves,
> which has been done, then asking a question; how is is spreading?, which has
> also been done. A hypothesis is then formed, in this case, that further
> infection of caves by WNS could be spread by humans. This is the last step
> that has been taken to my knowledge so far. The next step is to do an
> experiment, using a control and a study group. At this point, everything
> falls flat. To my knowledge, there has not been one valid experiment to
> conclusively show that WNS is spread by humans. Further, after the experiment
> is done, the conclusions presented must be able to be duplicated with the
> same results. This again, has not been done to my knowledge. It is only after
> all of these steps are taken, in exact order, that conclusions and valid,
> supported decisions can be made regarding cave closures.
>
> As such, without the use of and adherence to scientific method to prove or
> disprove that humans are in part, spreading WNS, the closure of any cave is
> invalid.
>
> To be very blunt to all those who advocate the closure of caves, either put
> up, or shut up. Prove the point, using valid scientific method. Until then
> the petition listed below is extremist, unsupported by any
> accompanying scientific data to prove or disprove that human traffic into
> caves is partially spreading WNS throughout U.S. caves.
> The unsupported petition in printed form is useful, but only for a camping
> colonic emergency.
> If the statements presented above are wrong, then prove them wrong,
> with valid, duplicated, supportive scientific data, here, on the SWR website.
> Carl.....
>
> On May 27, 2011, at 7:06 PM, aaronjst...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> I might be behind the times on this but this was brought to my attention
>> today. Looks like the efforts put forth by the BLM that most cavers
>> disagreed with were still not enough for the Center for Biological
>> Diversity. Their website also specifically sites BLM's unwillingness to
>> institute a blanket closure.
>>
>> http://www.caves.org/WNS/CBD%20Bat_APA_Petition_NOI_5-25-11.pdf
>>
>> Aaron
>> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>> _______________________________________________
>> SWR mailing list
>> s...@caver.net
>> http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
>
>
>
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